Bleach 251 Discussion

[regina777]

Okay, it is no new knews that i havent being thrilled at this current arc. But who cares!!!

in the last chapter ichigo met a former espada. Is that interesting or what? He made a flying getsuuga tenshou look like a dead soccer ball- posing no danger to the goalie. Bad analogy, maybe. But it at least gives us more info about Los Noches and Aizens network/army. Now, that somehow probably solves the issue of where GJ probably went when he got demoted.

And i now believe more than ever that it will be by probably aizen's own doing if inoue is saved.

But then again- looking at what GJ did when he got reinstated, it could mean that some of the demoted espada may not be all as strong as the current espada or espada that have been in that position for quite some time. Whatever the reason, this should warm up ichigo and co.


Predict Away.

RAWs
courtesy of Mangahelpers
RapidShare (http://rapidshare.com/files/2661017/Bleach.zip) | SendSpace (http://www.sendspace.com/file/jzncil) | GigaSize (http://www.gigasize.com/get.php/166848/Bleach.zip)


TRANSLATIONs
Translation by WinterLion (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=10673.0)
Translation by Djudge (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=10695.0)

SCANLATIONs
LQ by kokotas (SS) (http://www.sendspace.com/file/gczu35)|(RS) (http://rapidshare.com/files/2717058/Bleach_251_LQ_by_kokotas.zip.html)|(GS) (http://www.gigasize.com/get.php/167532/Bleach251LQbykokotas.zip)
MQ by #blood-scans (DD) (http://rolleyes.net/bloodscans/bleach/251/Bleach%20251%20-%20%5b%23blood-scanlations%5d.zip)|(RS) (http://rapidshare.com/files/2695101/Bleach_251_-___blood-scanlations_.zip.html)|(SS) (http://www.sendspace.com/file/84kpnp)|(GS) (http://www.gigasize.com/get.php/167245/Bleach_251__bloodscanlations.zip)
LQ by Hawkuro (SS) (http://www.sendspace.com/file/th8cmb)|(RS) (http://rapidshare.com/files/2717902/251_Hawkuro.zip.html)|(GS) (http://www.gigasize.com/get.php/167540/251_Hawkuro.zip)

[Aizen-diacho]

hmm i predict ichigo using his bankia and being able to fight somewhat on the same lv with the former espada most likly having an advantage agasin't him in speed and proably might use his mask and own in a couple of seconds.i doubt the former espada were that strong imo depending on how many there are only about 2 or 3 of them may be as strong as the current espada.

[DonEmu]

They may be close to the current espada but all of em are gonna be weaker than the weakest current espada if they arent part of the line up i believe, i agree - bankai, speed improvement, maybe the mask, he may even realise he can use the mask longer than usual, or he might unleash another move of his zanpakutou not yet revealed, seriously speaking this phase of the arc bores me...i cant wait till they leave los noches and aizen invades sereitei...

[Aizen-diacho]

lol well he isn't gonna invade serieti yet he has to take souls form the town to get the key to god's place.so most likly there's gonna be a war in the town and we can be sure to see the other captains fighting during the war.but that dude w/e his name is was able to strike ichigo with out him knowing until he got hit meaning he's faster than him right now i doubt even yami could do that so my bet is that he's stronger than yami so you can't really say that the former espada are weaker than yami which seems like the weakest espada right now.and the former espada could have got kicked off for numerous of reason one well as more arrancar were made they were stronger kciking them off 1 by 1 and for disobeying orders like grimjaw

[DonEmu]

ichigo is normal shinigami speed without bankai so u cant really rate the guy as super fast just cause he hit ichigo...grimjaw wasnt kicked off cause he disobeyed orders, he was kicked off cause he lost his hand which halved his power...

[Aizen-diacho]

ichigo is normal shinigami speed without bankai so u cant really rate the guy as super fast just cause he hit ichigo...grimjaw wasnt kicked off cause he disobeyed orders, he was kicked off cause he lost his hand which halved his power...

and what was the reaosn for him losing his arm?
and ichigo without his bankia can keep of byakuya so yes that dude is fast

[DonEmu]

u say it light byakuya is interstellar speed, byakuya was good at shunpo but still its not like other captains cant keep up. i wouldnt say the guy is fast until he can still go toe to toe with ichigo's bankai, which is fast...

and about the reasoning behind grimjaww losing place, he lost his position cause he disobeyed orders, thats the indirect reason, the main reason is still the fact that he lost half his power...u were arguing that ichigo's opponent would be major strong cause he is a former espada, in the end he is still gonna be weaker than the weakest espada in the current lineup...

[Aizen-diacho]

u say it light byakuya is interstellar speed, byakuya was good at shunpo but still its not like other captains cant keep up. i wouldnt say the guy is fast until he can still go toe to toe with ichigo's bankai, which is fast...

and about the reasoning behind grimjaww losing place, he lost his position cause he disobeyed orders, thats the indirect reason, the main reason is still the fact that he lost half his power...u were arguing that ichigo's opponent would be major strong cause he is a former espada, in the end he is still gonna be weaker than the weakest espada in the current lineup...

did i say major strong or modereatly.and i could bet byakuya was faster than tousen,hitsugaya,that fox dude,kenpachi and the scienetist guy.thats 5 out of 13 and you can probaly count the medic chick.none the less the guy is faster than ichigo without his bankia and it's not like he was just faster than ichigo so ichigo couldn't keep up he attacked ichigo and ichigo wasn't able to see him to react so thefore i doubt ichigo is just gonna blow him out with speed when he uses his bankia he might be able to keep up to an extent

[regina777]

okay, to throw some light on this. Your arguments above made me think about what has been shown so far. GJ got demoted- the reasons havent been clearly spelt out but i agree it was probably because he lost his arm vis a vis a chunk of his power/strength; Although i wouldnt say that it was half of it. It may partly be also that his demotion was due to insubordination. Okay, in effect he got demoted.

when he got his arm and number back he totally whooped the new number six (i hope inoue resurrected him- he has a score to settle with hitsugaya-kun). So, is there a correlation b.n his demotion and strenght? There is a strong possibility that there is. That probably some if not most of those demoted espada are weaker than the ones in position now.

But then again, the new number six that got creamed, Let say that he is demoted now. if inoue resurrects him but he hasnt received his rank back yet, can we say that he is weaker than Yami? or the Number 09,08, & 07?

If not, then there may be some of the demoted ones who may be stronger than the current ranked espada. Or is it that we dont really know much about the strength status of the demoted unranked espada?

And that also begs another query-- are the numbers representative of just strength?


EDIT:
SPOILER IN:
@ http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=10476.0#quickreply ;


Another quick trans:

一護超苦戦
Ichigo struggles in battle
意地貼って挽回しない
Stubbornly refuses to bankai.
おっさんに「舐めるな」と怒られる
Old man (Dorudouni) gets mad "Don't underestimate me."

おっさん、竜巻地獄で一護圧倒
Old man, overwhelms Ichigo with Dragon Fist Hell
それを見つめるネル
Neru is watching this.
「一護が死んじゃう」
"Ichigo's going to die"

[superkhanh0]

scan is here
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=10658.msg213010#msg213010

[Aizen-diacho]

Do You Change Your Opinion Now Donemu?
Even Though Ichigo Can Still Improve In Is Shikia Form But Even That Wouldn't Be Enough To Defeat That Dude.

[DonEmu]

Do You Change Your Opinion Now Donemu?
Even Though Ichigo Can Still Improve In Is Shikia Form But Even That Wouldn't Be Enough To Defeat That Dude.

My opinion on what should i change? Dont get what u are saying, i never argued that ichigo cant improve in shikai form, but still he reliance on bankai made his shikai quite crap...and if u are talking about the speed thing, saying he was able to keep up wit byakuya isnt a good example since he could see byakuya's movement even be4 he learned shunpo....

imo, nothing in that chapter proves me wrong, oh one more thing, is something coming out of neru's mask?when he said ichigo was going to die, i swear i see something coming out...

[Aizen-diacho]

My opinion on what should i change? Dont get what u are saying, i never argued that ichigo cant improve in shikai form, but still he reliance on bankai made his shikai quite crap...and if u are talking about the speed thing, saying he was able to keep up wit byakuya isnt a good example since he could see byakuya's movement even be4 he learned shunpo....

imo, nothing in that chapter proves me wrong, oh one more thing, is something coming out of neru's mask?when he said ichigo was going to die, i swear i see something coming out...

ichigo wa snever able to see byakuya's move before he learned shunpo.is it possible to see byakuya's move without it? yes it is but ichigo already knew shunpo when he meet byakuya again on the bridge,but he mastered it when he fought byakuya again.and byakuya speed doesn't increase when he uses his senbonzaku only the rose petals are close to ichigo's bankia speed.so in that case that would probaly mean that the former espada is also faster than byakuya.and don't u think that byakuya would be able to pawn yami?this former espada is stronger than yami that is evident right now even if we haven't seen yami released.what do u want to arue about next not saying thta all of the former espada are stronger than yami but this one is so not all of te 3 digit arrancar are weaker than the weakest current espada

[regina777]

i dont know if this demoted espada is just trying to force ichigo to go bankai mode. But it sure looks like he got pissed when ichigo insinuated at his supposed weakness.

and i still dont know if these fights with the demoted espada will clearly demonstrate their strengths. Could it be that some of them are strong enough but just dont like to go back to the ranks of the espada? at least there could be one- i hope.

And i think Neru is about to release. if it is so, and it is to protect ichigo, ichigo should get some rude awakening in his senses when neru gets dangerously whooped.

[DonEmu]

ichigo wa snever able to see byakuya's move before he learned shunpo.is it possible to see byakuya's move without it? yes it is but ichigo already knew shunpo when he meet byakuya again on the bridge,but he mastered it when he fought byakuya again.and byakuya speed doesn't increase when he uses his senbonzaku only the rose petals are close to ichigo's bankia speed.so in that case that would probaly mean that the former espada is also faster than byakuya.and don't u think that byakuya would be able to pawn yami?this former espada is stronger than yami that is evident right now even if we haven't seen yami released.what do u want to arue about next not saying thta all of the former espada are stronger than yami but this one is so not all of te 3 digit arrancar are weaker than the weakest current espada

ichigo could see byakuya's shunpo even be4 he learned shunpo , also ichigos bankai was faster than senbonsakura kageyoshi, the only reason byakuya began to keep up with the speed is that ichigos bankai began to crack his own bones due to the pressure...byakuya did not touch ichigo once during bankai until this happened...so no i dont see ur point...and where did ichigo learn shunpo when he met byakuya on the bridge, he didnt know shunpo until the training with zangetsu...i dont see ur point...

[Aizen-diacho]

ichigo saw byakuya twice before he fought him with his bankia.once on earth where he didn't even know what the hell happened when he got stabbed twice.and again on the bridge where he was able to keep up with shunpo..you know that move the shinigami do when they move round real fast yea that.he mastered shunpo by the time he meet byakuya again but his stamina wasn't up to byakuya's thats why he tired out when he used his bankia.if ichigo can't even keep up with this former espada and he easily owned yami on earth this former espada is stronger tha yami.so thats my point what proof do you have that he's not?

[regina777]

yup!!! the first was what resulted in ichigo being taken by Urahara, giving birth to Hollow ichigo to get his own powers, and getting trained in the process.

The second in soul society- here i dont think ichigo knew shunpo. But his fighting experience honed by his training with Urahara and Benihime made him defend against Byakuya's shunpo attacks. Then he got saved by Yoruichi-sama and got trained.


Okay-- does anyone think Dorudouni's Attacks in his released state resembles Kariya and his DOll (anime style)

[DonEmu]

ichigo saw byakuya twice before he fought him with his bankia.once on earth where he didn't even know what the hell happened when he got stabbed twice.and again on the bridge where he was able to keep up with shunpo..you know that move the shinigami do when they move round real fast yea that.he mastered shunpo by the time he meet byakuya again but his stamina wasn't up to byakuya's thats why he tired out when he used his bankia.if ichigo can't even keep up with this former espada and he easily owned yami on earth this former espada is stronger tha yami.so thats my point what proof do you have that he's not?

1. Espada are much stronger in heuco mundo, what ever strength boost ichigo might get will pale in comparism to a hollow's in heuco mundo.
2.Ichigo fought solely with bankai on earth, he is refusing to use bankai now
3.The hollow released his zanpakutou after just one attack, a smart person take that to mean he figures ichigo can take him otherwise
4.Ichigo didnt lose to byakuya cause of lack of stamina, he lost to byakuya cause his "BONES BEGUN TO CRACK" under the immense pressure of his bankai which he hadnt mastered.
5.The fact the ichigo had seen shunpo previous times from byakuya says nothing at all, renji couldnt even see the second stab when they were on earth and he has been with byakuya for years and hinted he had seen that movement various times and he has definitely seen shunpo various times but still couldnt keep up until SS.
6.If u are saying the reaso grimmjaw lost position is based solely on his insurbodination and not his loss of a hand, then when he got his hand back he would still have not reclaimed his number. And didnt grimmjaw tell ichigo even with 1 hand and half power he could still take him, and even 1 handed ichigo barely did anything except when masked.And this is a weakened former No.6...so do u really think the full powered 1 to 10 are weaker than any of the former espada?

I can think of one of the espada maybe being strong enough to be in the lineup but opting not to reenter, or for some reason choosing not to rejoin maybe unlike grimjaww once he got his power back or whatever...but thats an of chance, i agreed with ichigo's sentiments in this chapter completely, if he cant take out this guy, he should just go home cause the real espada are just gonna hand him his ass.

[Aizen-diacho]

3.ever heard of taking out an oppenent in the quickest way and he's not underestimating ichigo he must have heard about grimjaw and the others he may be confident in that he can win but he still can get injured

4.you tell me where they state that as a fact.even i can't find it my guess on his bones being broken are from byakuya's attack after he started to get tired.check wikipedia if u want it's because he got tired/

5.ichigo and renji are 2 different ppl renji said that he seen the attack about 3 times so he was only able to see it,he didn't have the speed to dodge it until when he first fought byakuya and stopped the attack.when ichigo got hit with it he was dumbfounded he didn't know what happened until byakuya explained.and the second time he was able to stop it because he was able to see it and react intime.but you re right he didn't use shunpo until he fought him again.

6.Grimjaw taking down a group of arrancar to earth and then when he was shunned about it he kinda brushed it of and tousen cut of his arm for that and he was kicked out of the espada.that was basically a sign of him being kicked off.Aizen even ordered inoue to bring his arm back and when she did he killed luppi again another sign of wlecoming him back

i'm not saying that the 3digit arrancar are stronger than the current espada.but you are saying that not even 1 of them are stronger than weakest current espada.do you think ichigo would have os much trouble agasin't yami with his shikia the way he is now with this former espada? i think not.i'm not saying thta ichigo isn't right for wanting to beat him with his shikia but i doubt he can beocme that strong with only his shikia and yes he is undeestimating him.