Fate & Destiny [Archive]

badash

11-03-2006, 12:50 PM

For me this is pure truth, I must say I thought this up LONG ago but many of you have already no doubt heard this from "the matrix" Every decision that you make is predestined and it is no matter WHAT the same as you would have made in the situation at hand.

Even an experience that apparently changes you is still fate because YOU changed the way you were always going to, its a simply case of "you are you and nothing more"

I believe in Fate and destiny but it is not an excuse to sit and wait for something to happen, its just that when it DOES happen you have already made upo your mind about what to do about it!

DBZWarrior6582

11-03-2006, 01:12 PM

Well I am a not a firm believer in fate but I do believe that there are things we can't controal and that there is a higher power that governs you decisions in certain situations. I think that in everyday life you make your own decisions and that when something happens that changes you or makes you a better person that fate had a hand in saying that it was supposed to happen so you could be the person you should be.

other than that, I'm not sure that fate can say that you decided what to have for breakfast or lunch.

Named

11-03-2006, 01:23 PM

Past, present and future are abstractions. They are perceptions from our limited explicate sense of reality.

When you ask what is destiny, you ask a complicated question. All of what will ever be has already happened, and all that has happened exists right now. The path from A to B is the same as from B to A. To say one's head is on one's shoulders is also to say the shoulders are on the head.
Everything is connected; everything.

Is Fate as simple as a path, though? Absolutely not. In no theory of the universe to date has such a juvenile conception of time's passage been even remotely plausible. There is no sequence of events, there are simply EVENTS. After that... Well, after that you can percieve those events in any way you please. If Fate is that way, then so be it. It exists in your mind. And as far as our science can determine, nothing in one's mind is any less real than what is outside of it ;) For whether a conjuration of the mind or an interpretation of frequencies externally, both occur IN the mind.

Azure Wrath

11-03-2006, 01:24 PM

ok... i feel like writing now.

I partially agree with DBZ.

I do not believe in fate. I find the idea of it completely appaling... Acooring to fate/destiny (same thing, right?) our choices mean nothing? Then what do you make choices for in the first place? What is the point on living, if everything is predetermined?
Do i not have the choice who i want to marry some day?
Do i not have the choice of what direction i want to study further in?
Do i not have the choice of where i want to live?
These three examples already determine a huge amount of information of my life, and surely i can change that. I had the choice of studying medicine or engineering. I choose engineering. Note, that I choose it. Not someone else. Yet, my choice of career will make a HUGE difference in my life. If i was a docter, i could contract AIDS from a patient. If i'm an engineer, i may make a buggerup in one of my designs, causing hundreds to die. Huge difference in both my fate, and those hundreds who may have died

Sure, some small things you cannot choose. You can't choose which family you are born into, but that doesn't mean its predetermined. Maybe my soul just stood in the proverbial queue to be born and it jsut happened that i was born into this body that i am today.

All our accomplishments in life, fate aims to prove that they are not our accomlishments, fate says that anyone could have done it, but fate choose you. So, it wasn't Lance Armstrong who defeated cancer and persisted, it was simply his path and he was forced to walk that path by some man dressed in black, called fate who wields a big stick and beats you up if you don't do as it says. Except you never will, he already determined you won't.

MY opinion, i choose to post this, it wasn't fate that gravitated my hands to this keyboard to post this...
so if you choose to insult me for my opinions, then you too made the choice to do it, meaning that you jsut may have defied fate
:D

Named

11-03-2006, 01:31 PM

Our choices do mean nothing. Identity is illusion. Power is an illusion. What impact do you really believe any exercising of your physical strength or cognitive ability will have on the world or the universe? It is one motion of the world, with you as a function in it.
That doesn't mean you have no control, in the narrower scope of reality. It simply means that when you zoom out from our petty lives; the distinction of one person's choice from another's cannot be discerned. It's all just one motion; one body of events.

To argue this nature is a folly of arrogance.

Consider that your personality is a product of your environment. So tell me, how much choice IS your actual choice? Your will was decided by the events which lead to your existence!
For example... Was it not Fate which brought you to join Chaos so that you had the choice to be sitting before your keyboard submitting that post? It can simply be a name for the force of all independent choices affecting one another.
It is the culmination of EVERYONE'S choice which leads each individual to where ever they go. Your personal little exertion on your surroundings barely registers.

I am a product of the events which lead to my conception!

Who am I? I AM EVERYTHING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED!

I am the universe. So are you ;)

Azure Wrath

11-03-2006, 02:19 PM

jeez... you are a hard one to argue against. But also fun to argue against! :D

i believe that it is coincedence that has got me to sit here at chaos, not fate. i could have gone to any other forum, this was simply the first one i came to. And i wasn't planning on staying for long, all i wanted to know was when the fillers will end, then i got sucked in because i choose to give the 'anything' section a chance
And i don't belive personality is the product of our enviroments.
For example. Take two kids, who both have alcoholics as dads. The one might follow in his dads steps and say :"yeah, my dad was an alcoholic, so i guess i'm one as well, because its what i'm used to". while the other one might say :"I will stay away from alcohol, because of my dad".
This example actually shows that (to a small degree) you get shaped by your enviroment, but the thing is, you have a choice of what you do with your circumstances, you can make it good or bad
and, yes, in the big picture, our accomplishments and choices mean nothing, but why do we persue accomplishments? Do you mean to say that no one should strive to accomplish anything? Indeed, it will not alter the course of the world/universe, but who ever gave a shit about that? Its about your own life's quality. You strive to do well in school to get a good job, not to enrich the world, but simply to enrich your life. YOu do not alter the (non-exsistent) fate of the world, only your own personal life. And i think lance armstrong can sleep with a hint of pride, knowing the accomplishments he has achieved... At any moment he could have quit his battle... but he persisted. not because it saved the world, but because it enriched his life.

Named

11-03-2006, 02:29 PM

What is the difference between coincidence and fate? Perception?

You say you could have gone to any other forum. Could have? But you didn't. You are here.
Why is that? You can huff and puff all the possiblities and potentialities you wish, 'til you are blue in the face. It doesn't change the fact that you are where you are, in your chair, submitting posts to Chaos.
The events which lead you here are called Fate to some. Others choose not to bother giving this conception of passing events a name. They fear being a function of the universe, rather than what they wish they were - a distinct and individual force operating on its own.

That's just not true... You are not in the universe. You are OF the universe. You can't escape that.

The example you presented neglected influences in the lives of those two children. Did they grow up in a sterile environment, only ever experiencing an alcoholic father?
No... They likely knew different people, watched different shows, had different events leading to the decision of veering left or veering right. Their choice was a product of events leading to that choice, even considering that some of those events may be different biological makeup. Another factor decidedly not in our individual control, yes? Nothing is IN our control. The decisions we make are decisions we were guided to make by CIRCUMSTANCE. There is no freedom in its most literal sense, is there? We are slaves to the functions operating around us. We are one particle in constant motion with others, ultimately creating the universe.
What this concludes with is not that we have NO CONTROL. The conclusion is that there IS NO CONTROL. There is only the motion of the universe. Why must anyone be in control? It's not you, it's not the policeman, it's not any president or military leader. They are all functions in the same motion! Let go of the arrogance protesting your place in the universe! There is nothing degrading about it.
One's life is not different to the inanimate material around one. Why for are we an exception? Consciousness? Sentience? Those too are products of the same material which constitutes EVERYTHING ELSE.

You can't fight against the implicate order of reality. It is never simply YOU versus OTHER THINGS. You are the other things. The other things are you. We all function in one motion of the universe.

Ask yourself why this notion fares such distaste. Why do we oppose this nature? Because we feel we are more important than everything else.
It's just ego.

What can I say... We're not that important. Sorry? :P

Azure Wrath

11-03-2006, 02:41 PM

i can't fight it? watch me! :D :D

coincedence VS fate...
impossible for me to explain, but i can try....
if you flip a coin and it lands on heads 6 times in a row, is it fate or coincedence? I for one have no idea... in this aspect there is no difference i guess.

Here's something i wonder about. If you take two children, born on the same day, but born from different mothers and take them and put them in EXACTLY the same circumstances, will they be the same people? By exactly the same, i eman you will obviosly have to simulate it, have two 'studios' where you do exactly the same to each kid... kinda like 'the truman show'. How will they turn out? Identical?
i believe not. I believe some are born with more wisdon then others, meaning that some will make better decisions, meaning that they won't be similar, meaning that your enviroment doesn't shape 100% of your personality

If you knew which path yuo walked and which path fate has decided you will walk, could you not stop and spite fate? Could you not say "screw you fate, just because you say i'm walking this path, i'm going to take a diferent path"

Sure, all of this is just "i could do this", but the fact is that you had the choice. You can only walk one path, you can't walk two, so saying that i am on the one solely because of fate, is usless, then the only way to prove it wrong is to walk more then one path, which is impossible.

Named

11-03-2006, 02:58 PM

That depends on your perspective! You are choosing to observe fate as the path that has yet to be walked. What Fate can be, rather, is simply the name for the path you have already walked, from the present or from hindsight of a future perspective. Whatever happens, that is Fate. Do you understand?
That's why Fate cannot be denied. You will do what you do. You can't spite what you have done by saying, "I HAD CHOICES!" Yeah... But you didn't follow those choices - you already made your choice. The outcome - the path decided on - is called Fate.

So really, what choice did you have? You can only ever walk one path, right? Show me where we have a choice. There is no dividing of ourselves to walk multiple pathes. Your will succumbs to influences exerting on that will, it then exerts itself on those influences.

A potentiality is an option before that option is commited to. However, whatever you do commit to was an effect of the circumstance surrounding your will, not SIMPLY your will alone. Therefore it is a result of everything, including you, not just you.
No individual can exert his will on the surroundings without the surroundings affecting him.

To answer the situation you proposed- that would depend on the physical structure of the subject's brains. Environment does mold the clay of the personality, so to speak. Albeit it is the genetics of the person which quantifies how much clay there is and how it can be molded.

Azure Wrath

11-03-2006, 03:28 PM

What choices have i had in my life? Obviosly, these must be life-altering choices...
- i had the choice to take my own life, when i had a blade to my wrist a few years ago. That wouldn't have split my path, but it would have stopped it in its track.
- I had the choice to study further after school, which would drastically effect my career after school, affecting my life-quality after school
- i had the choice to use condoms or not. Being a dad at the age of 18 is life altering.
- People who choose to have abortions. Need i say more?
- i have the choice to bacome a drug-user. that will change the course of my life.

"Whatever happens, that is Fate"?

i understand your idea of fate, being a simple name for what we have and will do, but then it means that it is not predetermined, and that is the idea that i have a problem with. I do not mind fate being called whatever path i have walked, then 'fate' is just another name for 'the life of me'.
The only problem i have with fate is that people use it as a sad excuse for anything that runs bad in their lives. People that say "i failed my drivers, oh well, it must be fate, so what?" or "if its my fate to pass this exam, then i'll pass it, so i don't have to study" THAT ticks me off, and THAT is what i have against fate... or the general publics idea of fate, not your idea of fate.

Named

11-03-2006, 03:42 PM

Again, all of the things which you listed were outcomes made under duress of circumstance. If you tell me you had a choice over every facet of every moment of every instance which affected you leading to those choices, then I will give you a victory in that it was an exertion of your will which lead to where you are.
Until you do, you are forced to face the reality that you do not have as much control as you have deluded yourself into believing.

You make a fatal assumption when judging a person for such an utterance, as you remarked, "Oh well, must be fate". This is analagous with saying, "Such is life". It is an admittance of that obvious reality; that we don't have full control over our lives.

What you call the general public's opinion of Fate, I call your perception of fate. Unless you personally interviewed each one of these people, you cannot say they sway one way or the other. And the dirty little secret is that there is not so wide of a margin between the two. That would be too easy.

What gets us from the start of the day to the end is NOT simply our choices. Our choices are a MINESCULE function in the motion which takes us from beginning to end. I'm not even entering into the fray of explaining how different choices of different people conflict with one another. I need only say that for you to consider it. Simpy put; we don't have control. No one has control. No FORCE has control. No one wins and no one loses. Things just occur, they always have. Then silly little people come along and ATTEMPT to control and validate their existence by labelling each and every one of these occurences.
If you consider that control, then I own you by stating that I own you.

What constitutes your body is the EXACT same material and dance of electrons and protons as everything else in the universe. To assert that we are somehow more important than the other matter, for being AWARE of our existence is the most absurd arrogance and a curse of our sentience. Where is it written that to be aware of one's state grants one ownership of their state? No where. We wrote that rule, in the HEIGHT of our disgusting conceit.

We do not live in the universe. We are FUNCTIONS of the universe. Is it really so painful to face this reality? There is no disgrace in being one with this beautiful universe.
If a planet is a part of the universe, then you are a part of the universe. It truly is pitiful to think we are an exception to every other particle of matter in the universe.

Azure Wrath

11-03-2006, 03:59 PM

Kholdstare

11-03-2006, 04:15 PM

I believe that a strong man makes his own fate

Named

11-03-2006, 04:43 PM

hmmm...
listen, i understand perfectly what you're saying and it all makes sense... but i have my opinion on it and it differs from yours. So, i'll respect your opinion and not force my own beliefs upon you or anyone else.
so i agree to disagree.
i have no more to say to justify my point, but i still believe that i have some control over my life, because if i don't, what am i fighting for?
anyway. peace

Exactly! This is why people attack the things society has assumed to be true, for comfort's sake. Indeed, what are you fighting for? Your purpose in life should not be based on lies or misconceptions, should it? So people question, and they encourage those around them to question. What you discover from this process is an answer to your own question, you are afterall the only one who -can- answer such an inquisition.

What are you fighting for? Who says it even has to be a fight. And who ever said there was necessarily a purpose to any of this?
Do you NEED a purpose? Why do you deserve a purpose?
We have been conditioned to believe we are the glory of all that is glorious. That is outright a lie. We don't deserve anything at all. And yet right here all around us is everything we could ever want.
I implore all people to break the barriers around them so that they may appreciate their universe. I like to think it's more worthy of attention than how they should go about getting a new girlfriend or where they'll get the money to upgrade their computer again.
I am beseeching all people to not allow that natural human arrogance to overcome their opinions. We aren't full of purpose. We aren't infinitely worthy of our world or our place in the universe and we are most definitely NOT more important than anything around us.
Upon discarding half-thought notions and mindless traditions defining purpose and reaching that equaliser, you are rewarded with the option of discovering a purpose of personal value to you.

By the way, the preceeding discussion from my end is not in fact soley my opinion. It is an opinion shared by Siddhartha the Buddha, mystics throughout the ages, and a new wave of scientists researching the true holographic nature of the universe in accordance with the oldest of beliefs. A theory of the universe that unlike its predecessors and peers, without fail can explain ALL of what was otherwise disregarded as being 'beyond scientific explanation', including all events bundled into 'supernatural' category.
This is the conclusion countless brilliant minds all over the planet and from ages as far apart as MILLENIA have come to an agreement on. Either a most miraculous coincidence, or more likely something far greater.

All things in the universe are interconnected. It is the only way to explain the nature of this universe.

badash

11-03-2006, 05:12 PM

When you ask what is destiny, you ask a complicated question.

That's my favorite bit so far!

Bap

11-03-2006, 06:04 PM

Named's has pretty much got me covered on this =P

Siddhartha is a good book, you guys should check it out.

NMK

11-03-2006, 10:45 PM

Just like Neo in Matrix said, I like to have control over my own life, so no fate for me.

(He didn't say it in those words)

animeking

11-03-2006, 10:54 PM

GAH named is to good o_O i mean wow just wow o_O (sorry for the spam im just amazed by this little aurgument for some reason lol)

JoshAries

11-04-2006, 02:06 AM

There is no destiny or fate. There is only exsistance. If you try to fathom the real picture of the world and the universe, your exsistance is awfully insignificant and anything you do will make no real impact on anything whatsoever.

Thats about all we have. Is just to exsist.

As for where we go in the short exsistance and the things we do is, in my opinion, determined by coincidences and consequences created by those before us and those around us... not mention ourselves. Thats about the simpilest I can put it before I start to confuse myself.

PhantomAlchemist

11-07-2006, 12:02 AM

i doubt that there is a set fate, and at the same time doubt that anyone has any real control over the situation.

as thus i sum my opinion as this: fate is but an illusion brought on by the misconseption and almost implausible reality of how things affect one another. because people see things that happen that are out of their control, they rely on fate as an escape route to stop them from worrying as much, while the truth is that it was all an elaborate set of choices of made by people. person(1) views what they do as their concious choice, without any pre-determination. Person(2)-Person(10) do the same, just make everyday choices, that they view as their own and they don't change anything, because there was nothing preset to change, while these choices, affect person(1) in a manner in which he can not control in any form, and he in turn views this as fate.

my veiw of time and fate at the same time is like a 3D honey comb. from each line, there are many choices, to make, some of them lead to the same thing, others go else where. it apears to strech on to infinity to "earlier"(if that even exists") in time until it reaches a single line where everything protrudes from, we can't see the end of time's or our own since you can't remember your own conception, and we don't know for shure exataly 100% what happened to start the universe. and every person's life/destiny/choice pattern is made as time goes along, weaving in and out of time's, 3D honey comb, and each person's is touching some other people's, paths, but they aren't completely connected.

i hope i made sense of what rambled through my brain.

with this i end with a qote from one of my favorite shows.
"don't ask for it... go out and win it.... do this and you will be rewarded."

Flyin

11-07-2006, 02:04 AM

I'f I had a picture I'd post it, but I explained it once using a diagram.

A horizontal line in the middle which is present, expanding circles leading down from the focal point of the horizon, and kind of explosive lines going randomly upwards. The Circles I use to explain previous forces, actions and surroundings that affect the present, and the random lines represent future choices, also coming from the focal point, cause you don't know whats going to happen, but its easy to guess whats gonna' happen sooner.
It might not make sense, but it's easy to get if I had the pic.

Named

11-07-2006, 04:28 AM

You think it's implausible how things affect one another? Are we living in the same universe?
I'd contend that to say people DEFY the notion of Fate or the interconnectivity of the universe because they want control. But they don't have control. This is a petty fear.

Why would the choices we have not even made be mapped on... anything? They don't exist. You only ever make ONE choice when given the option of choosing in anything. Absolutely anything. I consider it of the most profound arrogance to assume we are so very important, even the choices we DON'T make are mapped on our lives. That's ridiculous. You make a choice, and that's it.

What is an illusion is the way each and every one of us percieve reality, and this incessant need to DIVIDE everything we interact with. All things do indeed affect one another because all things are connected!

Consider that there is no 'out there' opposing what is in your mind. 'Out there' is a series of frequencies our senses detect and our mind translates. It all exists in your mind, therefore it is as the mystics have said throughout the ages; one big illusion.
There is no distinction between yourself and everything else. THAT is the illusion.

DesecratioN

11-07-2006, 02:18 PM

Fate or Destiny are excuses for the weak who are to weak to burn down their own path.

the answer is no, in fact it is a hell no. There are limiting factors however nothign is preset, I can at any given moment decide to switch my career path, switch my lifestyle, die at will.

The only form of predestination I do see as viable is that of genetics, but taht is not pre destination that is what we call heredity.

Named

11-07-2006, 02:26 PM

Chidongan

11-07-2006, 03:34 PM

well i have mixed feelings about fate and/or destiny.

it gives me comfort in the fact that my life will have a point, and i'm not just some usless bag of meat. and that if i fail (miserblley (aaahhhh sp?)) in life, my fate/destiny will put me back on track.

but i also have a negative attitude towards it.

by having a fate/destiny that means that it doenst matter what choices i make, becuase the end result will be what is written out for me. and i dont like that.

Named

11-07-2006, 04:16 PM

Who is to say it matters what choices you make even without some divine force governing them? Is there really any difference to you and your experiences, personally?

PhantomAlchemist

11-07-2006, 06:35 PM

OK, now why is our genetics different from our cognitive will? Your genetic makeup is a result of other influences, right? So too is the development and functions of your personality. You didn't grow up by yourself. You didn't form your opinions by yourself. They are all results of various environmental factors influencing you.

Each one of us is not our own person. We are products of every single influence that has interacted with us.

You say you make a choice. And I say you make a choice because other factors encouraged you to do so. This doesn't rule us out of the decision, it merely places us as ONE of the effects leading to the action.

if you were to take this to the extreme, you could say that in a way everybody is part of everyone and everything. so if we are all the same thing, you could define each person as a diferent train of thought, floating around in the same head, so that means that we a just the dream of something else, that might actually be, that is if it wasn't the train of thought of something else, but since we are a part of that, we are part of that world and this. so everything "imagined" and "real" to us is all the same thing, and we are all one person, just many different trains of thought...

this is confussing and yet seems to make alot of sense if you were to use it as a deffiniton or a reason.