Yondamie strength

[NarutOBunshin]

ok, I know sealing the Kyuubi isnt really defeating it but yondamie had to have fought it for a while first, meaning he must have done fairly well to live and then seal it, so if he can be that strong then he would have pwnd oro, itachi, etc. when kakashi says that naruto is the only one to surpass yondamie then could that mean soon naruto can pwn sasuke(of course:P), oro and possibly itachi? wat do u think?

[offline_NG]

no,i think that the bijuu has to seal in jinchurikin,without this its just a stupid demon.

[NarutOBunshin]

wat i mean is that if yondamie could hold his own against the Kyuubi he would be better that itachi, etc, Kakashi says that naruto is the only one who could surpass yondamie meaning eventually naruto could pwn itachi, oro, etc.

[KageNaruto]

yondaime was called the greatest ninja that konoha had, and kakashi said only naruto can surpass yondaime, meaning nobody in the world is currently that strong.

kyubi has nothing to do with proving how strong yondaime is, mainly cause w ehave no clue what happened

[NarutOBunshin]

i understand but neither itachi nor any1else could hold there own against Kyuubi (possibly Uchiha Marada) so if naruto can get to that point of yondamie's, strength even if maximum, then he could pwn any1else. (Im using the kyuubi as an example because no one else if known to have a decent fight with it in the flesh besides Uchiha Marada possibly)

[KageNaruto]

i understand but neither itachi nor any1else could hold there own against Kyuubi (possibly Uchiha Marada) so if naruto can get to that point of yondamie's, strength even if maximum, then he could pwn any1else. (Im using the kyuubi as an example because no one else if known to have a decent fight with it in the flesh besides Uchiha Marada possibly)

well if you taugh tthe current itachi or oro the shiki fujin or w/e its called im sure they could seal kyubi as well

[NarutOBunshin]

true but they would probably get pwnd before using it

[KageNaruto]

true but they would probably get pwnd before using it

i dont recall itachi having a summon, he might. but oro and jiraiya could probably seal the kyubi (if they had the death god contract like i said).

you really have no idea how the 4th sealed kyubi. dont use your own theories based on NOTHING in arguments, because they have no validity

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

what u think happaned to the fourth.he was kicking the kyuubi's ass but couldn't kill it?lets be honest her kishimoto isn't th type of aurthor/illistrator to do something so not resonable or bias.the fourth got his ass kicked imo.yea he survived long enough to seal the kyuubi and stuff but still that doesn't say he was exchaning blows with the kyuubi thats crazy.

[NarutOBunshin]

i know how yondame sealed kyuubi im just using that as an example of his strength, i would use another example but wat others are there?

[regina777]

i know how yondame sealed kyuubi im just using that as an example of his strength, i would use another example but wat others are there?

yes!! i believe you have a point. Sandaime used that same punchline- about the hokage who sacrificed his life to save the village= yondaime. He was a genius and a strong hokage (but not the strongest- that goes to the "God of shinobi"=sandaime before he retired). Honestly, His "geatest" attribute got cemented in stone when kyuubi got sealed at the cost of his life. you definately can you use this.
although he wouldnt have become that great if it wasnt for his knack for making incredible and powerful jutsus.

what u think happaned to the fourth.he was kicking the kyuubi's ass but couldn't kill it?lets be honest her kishimoto isn't th type of aurthor/illistrator to do something so not resonable or bias.the fourth got his ass kicked imo.yea he survived long enough to seal the kyuubi and stuff but still that doesn't say he was exchaning blows with the kyuubi thats crazy.
i certainly agree with you here. Naruto's fight with Gaara and the legendary sannin fight displayed a lot about how these ninja fight with the beasts and demons. I have always gone with the notion that Gamabunta served as a good distraction for kyuubi whilst Yondai made the jutsu to seal him.

[Shino18]

i personally believe that the akatsuki leader is stronger than the 4th or else he wouldnt have all those people following him also thats why naruto needs to be stronger than the fourth so eventually he can fight the leader and the upper members of akatsuki and not be owned hardcore

[Sabaku no Kakashi]

I personally dun think its fair to conclude that Oro or Itachi etc can seal the kyuubi if they knew the death god jutsu. It's not an automatic thing in which u juz cast the jutsu and everything takes place on its own. If it were so Sandaime would have sealed Oro already. (I know Sandaime was injured, my point is it is possible to retaliate even under the jutsu, like Oro did, and u gotta be able to grab hold of whoever u wanna seal first).

I dun agree with the opinion that Yondaime did not actually defeat the Kyuubi. In a fight, as long as u can bring down your opponent, ur considered the winner. Physical supremacy is not the criteria for victory. Of course Yondaime cant literally kill the kyuubi, who can? No matter how skilled he is, he's after all a human. However, being able to devise a method to subdue the kyuubi, he should be considered the victor. It's just like humans hunting sharks or lions. No one can subdue these beasts physically, but where we lack in strength we compensate for it with intelligence.

Even the third had to rely on yondaime's death god technique to save the village. This just goes to show how talented as a Shinobi he really is. And judging from what Kakashi said about only Naruto being the only person with the potential to surpass yondaime, it's abundantly clear that yondaime got his reputation not from his heroic deed in sealing the kyuubi, but indeed he was a never before seen genius. Even Jiraiya has mentioned before what an immense talent Yondaime's got, if I remembered correctly he even said that to date no one has matched Yondaime b4. Sure Sandaime is stronger than the first 2 hokages, but I strongly doubt even in his prime can he match up to Yondaime. The thing that made him the "strongest" hokage was his knowledge of jutsus. By now we know that to learn all the jutsus u need not only immense intelligence and memory, but great skill at nature manipulation as well. Yondaime, on the other hand, created some of the strongest jutsus we have yet seen. Rasengan is the highest level of form manipulation, the flicker technique is the fastest possible way to transport urself and which earned him the title yellow flash. The death god technique sealed even the strongest of demons. I believe that's sufficient evidence that he was the absolute strongest in konoha, probably even stronger than Itachi. If he hasn't died so young, who knows if he can't become the next "Professor" like the third, or figure out how to merge form and nature manipulation together?

In my opinion the Akatsuki leader is probably as strong as yondaime. We have absolutely no evidence suggesting who is stronger. Someone of Yondaime's calibre is certainly enough to command the allegiance of even the strongest of shinobi. Since they are now contriving to gather all the tailed beasts it's probably for the purpose of making themselves stronger. I'm sure that there would be a chance for the Akatsuki leader to surpass yondaime too...just not yet

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

i agree with you on some of your points.yea the fourth made incrdible jutsus and he was a never before seen genius.but imo he proably was the best ninja created ever and had more than the potential to be the greatest.but he dided young and didn't get to live out the rest of his life as the best ninja.when kakashi told naruto he believe's that he can pass the fourth or be greater than him i think he means he is even more of a genius and has the potential to be better than the fourth ever was.but the fourth at his day in age imo was strong but imo jiraiya,and the third would be able to beat him.why i say this basicaly because right now those are the strongest in the narutoverse right now and itachi,and oro i doubt can beat him.but when ppl say he was the greatest ninja i see it as him being very strong in his day and age but if he lived longer his power would be unmatched

[Chidongan]

ok who was stronger?

Sandaime or Yondaime?

becuae even though we've heard that Yondaime was an uper powerful shinobi, i've also heard that Sandaime was the strongest hokage of all.

is that true?

[Kuroda]

In the anime there is a brief scene where you seen the first and nidaime standing beside a very young Sarutobi no older than Naruto (12) and they tell him that he will become hokage and that its a big responsibiliby. Now it doesnt show how old Yondaime was when he was inaugurated but I am sure they were both very strong. Also When Saru fights Oro he almost wins but do to his old age he just isnt as strong. Imagine when he was middle age, how strong he probly was.

[KageNaruto]

ok who was stronger?

Sandaime or Yondaime?

becuae even though we've heard that Yondaime was an uper powerful shinobi, i've also heard that Sandaime was the strongest hokage of all.

is that true?

nope. kakashi said naruto is the ONLY one who can surpass the 4th. this means sandiame didnt.

this should tell you yondaime = strongest ninja ever

[Shino18]

yea yondaime was the strongest since ONLY naruto has the strength to surpass him but to how close the sandaime was we have no idea

[.........]

yea yondaime was the strongest since ONLY naruto has the strength to surpass him but to how close the sandaime was we have no ideaWell,I would speculate that their level of difference would be like comparing 2 Jounin(where one is obviously stronger than the other but not by a whole lot),or comparing a Jounin to a Sannin(which I think is a high enough difference to be slightly skeptical).Or in an extreme case a Jounin to a Kage,which I highly doubt(even though he's supposed to be the strongest ever,I don't think he was THAT strong.I'm not ruling it out though).There's a lot to take into consideration,but for now I say its somewhere in between the first two.

[regina777]

ok who was stronger?

Sandaime or Yondaime?

becuae even though we've heard that Yondaime was an uper powerful shinobi, i've also heard that Sandaime was the strongest hokage of all.

is that true?
well, that is the scenario. And the other scenario is the different spins and interpretations that fans put on these.

Yondai of course being the hero the manga makes him out to be (young, hot, strong, genius, willing to die for his village, jutsu specialist, et etc) will surely have more following than any of the other hokages or probably even any character in naruto. as such with such an air around him when he is paired with another in categories such as strong, greatest (the good ones)- he wins.

Naruto fans, excluding you of course :P, know much info on the two- sandai and yondai- because they are the ones the manga makes much noise about. Sandai was called SHINOBI no Kami (god of shinobi), the professor (he supposedly knew almost every jutsu in konoha), and the strongest of the 5 hokages. While Yondai has these: best shinobi konoha ever produced, the yellow flash, and ofc the one who sealed kyuubi no yoko (the king of all bijuu).

These are known. So fans put spins on them as they see fit. there is a thread here that is devoted to this discussion. You can search for it. and enlighten yourself.


Back to Kyuubi four tails. I still cant believe Kagenaruto turned a 180 :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: and started supporting KN4- that is all i have to say for now.

[KageNaruto]

well i did!

i didnt complain about 4tk that much, i just said it looked really wierd and unfitting! besides i havent even mentioned 4tk for like 4 months.

but regina, kakashi said Naruto is the ONLY one who is capable of surpassing yondaime. that means sandaime wasnt as strong as the 4th

[regina777]

well i did!

i didnt complain about 4tk that much, i just said it looked really wierd and unfitting! besides i havent even mentioned 4tk for like 4 months.

but regina, kakashi said Naruto is the ONLY one who is capable of surpassing yondaime. that means sandaime wasnt as strong as the 4th

hahahahaaa!!! see- i had no support then. everyone had something negative to say. i wrote some long posts just trying to defend it. tch!!!

ahh!! i am glad though that you are now a supporter.

[Chidongan]

ok who was stronger?

Sandaime or Yondaime?

becuae even though we've heard that Yondaime was an uper powerful shinobi, i've also heard that Sandaime was the strongest hokage of all.

is that true?

nope. kakashi said naruto is the ONLY one who can surpass the 4th. this means sandiame didnt.

this should tell you yondaime = strongest ninja ever

yes, thats true. but even if sarutobi was stronger than yondaime, he couldnt surpass him. sarutobi came before yondaime. so yondaime would have to surpass him.

e.g.

Sarutobi's shinobi level is at 100.

Yondaime is at 99.

sarutobi's level surpasses yondaimes. but he didnt actually surpass yondaime. becuase sarutobi's highest level was there before yondaime's.

now if:

yondaime shinobi level is at 150

and sarutobi is at 125.

then yondaime surpassed him. becuase sarutobi came first, set up his highest level, then yondaime came and broke that record.


so even though i do think that yondaime was the strongest shinobi ever, i think it may be possible that sarutobi beat him.

also sarutobi had to choose between yondaime and orochimaru for who was to become the next hokage. sarutobi only chose yondaime because oro was evil. and if thats the only reason he chose yondaime then that would mean that oro and yondaime were the same or close in strength.

and if an old sarutobi almost defeated oro, that would mean a yonger sarutobi would completely anihilate him thus implying that we would also own yondaime.

oh and i have nothing against yondaime, i was just thinking.

[regina777]

.....
and if an old sarutobi almost defeated oro, that would mean a yonger sarutobi would completely anihilate him thus implying that we would also own yondaime.

oh and i have nothing against yondaime, i was just thinking.
chidongan, i will warn you- if you make that stance stick by it and dont be intimidated. Yondai fans will rain down on your neck like crazy. like i wrote above it is known that sarutobi-sensei is the strongest of the 5 past hokages but spins and twists are used to make yondai, called the best shinobi konoha has produced also the strongest.

i am a yondai fan. i will choose him any day over anyone in a fight- even over jiraiya. But i wouldnt take what honor bestowed on another from them just because i am a fan.

[Sabaku no Kakashi]

Well IMO while the reason why Sandaime chose Yondaime over Oro was because of Oro's malicious nature, it doesn't absolutely mean that Oro was stronger than Yondaime. Oro was probably considered based on other criteria like experience and accomplishments, even though he may be weaker than Yondaime. Given that Yondaime was still young a that time it was no hurry for him to become the next Kage, even if he was the strongest. He can stil be deployed for missions or receive further training. After all an older (more matured, and not to the extent as to be physically disadvantaged) candidate may be able to command the respect of more of the village's shinobi rather than a younger person.

[eighttailedfox]

"Well IMO while the reason why Sandaime chose Yondaime over Oro was because of Oro's malicious nature, it doesn't absolutely mean that Oro was stronger than Yondaime. Oro was probably considered based on other criteria like experience and accomplishments, even though he may be weaker than Yondaime. Given that Yondaime was still young a that time it was no hurry for him to become the next Kage, even if he was the strongest. He can stil be deployed for missions or receive further training. After all an older (more matured, and not to the extent as to be physically disadvantaged) candidate may be able to command the respect of more of the village's shinobi rather than a younger person."
I think yondaime was picked over oro becusae of experience and achomplishments.... Oro wasnt picked becuase i dunno maybe sarutobi taught him and well he could tell his personality, ambitous, proud, and merciless... is that the kind of person you want to be hokage? Oro was stronger and a better canidate then yondaime except for his personality.
The death god technique doesnt really gauge yondaimes power, i mean anko has a techinque similar to that.
Sarutobi mastered all 5 chakara elements and can create water jutsu nowhere near water that was a feat no one except the second hokage could do, yondaime was a melle fighter a dam powerful one but, i think sarutobi would be powerful enough to fight him off then destory him with a uber jutsu.

[RevKev]

but regina, kakashi said Naruto is the ONLY one who is capable of surpassing yondaime. that means sandaime wasnt as strong as the 4th

just a thought, but is it not possible that kakashi only meant in one aspect? for instance, i am far better at math than my roomate. i surpass him in all ways math. but he can drink far more beers then i can. in terms of beer-drinkage he surpasses me. but, if we where to fight, my math skills and his beer gut would help neither of us very much.

my thoughts on kakashi's qoute was that naruto has enough chakra to attempt the jutsu far more times, far more quickly than most any ninja, even more so with mass-kage bunshin. naruto might not be the sweet talking, technique creating, kyuubi sealing shinobi that the fourth was, but he has the potential to finish a jutsu that he could not. he can surpass him in that way. doing this will give naruto a HUGE edge over most competitors, as he'll be able to manipulate the shape of an elemental chakra to dang near anything he wants to.

also, you might note that naruto still can't rasengan one handed, at least not without kyuubi backing.


as for the fourth being the uber-leet, ultimate ninja of ninja slaying +7k, i know this'll get me attacked, but i think the sannin could all three pwn him. my reasoning is that oro and he had to be at least NEAR even strength when the fourth was picked, and oro has done nothing but learn new techniques, all the while never really aging. he now knows more than the fourth did...so present oro vs. past fourth? oro, FTW. and sarutobi vs fourth? well, we'll leave it at the fact the oro barely pulled a win against the third, and that was WITH using forbidden jutsu that required sacrifising human lives to create, something i doubt the fourth would be making much use of.

[Shino18]

also when they were talking about fighting oro in the anime sandaime says no one could fight him equally now and anko said if only the fourth was alive in my opinion then he was admiting he was weaker than yondaime

[narutofan79]

i think you have to give the strongest to 4th based on clear as day statement made by kakashi

on the death god thing i think that is an example of his power because if its anything like the 3rd he had to force the demon into the jutsu its not a cast and forget. I do not think any other person could do it. I think the 4th had a bunch of chakra like naruto.

3rd is a close second

[Chidongan]

also when they were talking about fighting oro in the anime sandaime says no one could fight him equally now and anko said if only the fourth was alive in my opinion then he was admiting he was weaker than yondaime

that can also mean that yondaime and oro were equal in strength. and an aged sarutobi is weaker than oro and yondaime.

[DonEmu]

yondaime died young, he may be implying that yondaime may, and i stress on the word may, have grown stronger than him in time...

[Chidongan]

yondaime died young, he may be implying that yondaime may, and i stress on the word may, have grown stronger than him in time...yondaime probably had the potential to grow stronger than sarutobi. but who knows for sure?

[Recoom]

There are so many different meanings of strength in the Narutoverse that to even try comparing two people is difficult.

We have things like:

Chakra
Chakra control.
Quality of Jutsus.
Amount of Jutsus.
Leadership Ability.
Management Ability.
Combat tactic Ability.
War Strategy Ability.
Spying Ability.
Hard-headedness
Common Sense.
Good Natured-ness

"Being a Good Ninja" is a multifaceted endeavor.

In the Chunin exam the judges looked for a variety of things in the students. I assume that for such a high CEO type position, its a rather mixed bag of tricks, mostly dealing with Combat Prowress and Leadership together.

[DonEmu]

to be hokage, u must have all these factors, so comparing ppl of equal high lvl is easier than comparing lets say, chouji to sakura.

[.........]

There are so many different meanings of strength in the Narutoverse that to even try comparing two people is difficult.

We have things like:

Chakra
Chakra control.
Quality of Jutsus.
Amount of Jutsus.
Leadership Ability.
Management Ability.
Combat tactic Ability.
War Strategy Ability.
Spying Ability.
Hard-headedness
Common Sense.
Good Natured-ness

"Being a Good Ninja" is a multifaceted endeavor.

In the Chunin exam the judges looked for a variety of things in the students. I assume that for such a high CEO type position, its a rather mixed bag of tricks, mostly dealing with Combat Prowress and Leadership together.Which is why I think that Yondaime was stronger physically,but Sandaime was a better Hokage because he had all of those qualities and not just good at fighting.I could be wrong though.

[y.o.]

I dont think so, I dont know were the hell this discusson from, it has been said the the 4th was the greatest nin konoha ever produced, he sealed kyuubi and died doing it at a young age, I think that at that point he was already stronger than the 3rd!

The only thing the 3rd had over him was experience, and pure number of jutsu, nothing else! Thats why he was chosen!

[RevKev]

I dont think so, I dont know were the hell this discusson from, it has been said the the 4th was the greatest nin konoha ever produced, he sealed kyuubi and died doing it at a young age, I think that at that point he was already stronger than the 3rd!

The only thing the 3rd had over him was experience, and pure number of jutsu, nothing else! Thats why he was chosen!

greatest nin doesn't have to mean best in a fight. kakashi is known as an "elite genius", and renowned throughout many ninja villages. gai, not so much. but we've been told, by both kakashi and gai, that gai is very likely to win a fight between the two of them.

as for "zomgz, 4th FTW, joo noobs!"...are we going to just completely ignore the previous proofs against this?

it was plainly said oro and he where "near" equal strength when the fourth was chosen. the third would have beaten oro, had he a little more youth to spare. sorry yo, but if if x=y, and z>x, then z>y.

now i'm not saying the 4th, had he lived, would not have become a better fighter than both, but at the point in which he passed away, i think the third was the stronger of the two.

also, he was chosen because he had a good heart, and loved the people of konoha. we've already seen that hokage is not chosen because of the jutsu you know, tsunade hasn't been seen using all that many jutsu, medical aside. so it's assumable that a hokage may need *gasp* other skills beside fighting!

[jounin101]

Greatest nin does mean best. when 3rd and Anko were talking about fighting oro, anko said "if only we had the 4th, he could beat orochimaru" then the hokage said something about not dwelling on the past and there might not be a ninja in konoha who can beat oro now.

and you're using shiki fuujin to determine strength. 3rd couldnt seal oro(all circumstances aside) while the 4th sealed the kyuubi, who IS way stronger than orochimaru. i dont think the difference in age could make up for the difference between the kyuubi and orochimaru

the 3rd was known as "the professor", while the 4th was known as "the greatest ninja to come out of konoha" i think all of that is pretty self explanatory.

[RevKev]

Greatest nin does mean best. when 3rd and Anko were talking about fighting oro, anko said "if only we had the 4th, he could beat orochimaru" then the hokage said something about not dwelling on the past and there might not be a ninja in konoha who can beat oro now.

and you're using shiki fuujin to determine strength. 3rd couldnt seal oro(all circumstances aside) while the 4th sealed the kyuubi, who IS way stronger than orochimaru. i dont think the difference in age could make up for the difference between the kyuubi and orochimaru

the 3rd was known as "the professor", while the 4th was known as "the greatest ninja to come out of konoha" i think all of that is pretty self explanatory.

as i said. where the fourth to have lived until that day, i too think he could have taken oro. but it has been noted oro was turned down kage because of his lack of compassion, NOT skill. the evidence, not just qoutes and titles, leaves me believing that at the time the fourth died, he and oro may have been on equal ground, with the possibility of oro being the stronger of the two.

also, as far as the fight between kyuubi/fourth, oro/third, oro and the third where fighting one on one. oro used forbidden jutsu and had some control over the power of the the first and the second. the fourth had the power of the entire village of konoha backing him. until wee see more of how be managed to pin the kyuubi up, we can't say for sure that he "single handedlydefeated the kyuubi".

and lastly, the "greatest ninja we konoha ever produced"....greatest can mean allot of m things. he was kind, caring, strong, creative, handsome, brave, and generally talented. this makes him great. being astounding in all those things made him the greatest. that doesn't mean he could pwn anything that twitches with a blink of his eye. it is still possible that there where STRONGER nin produced by konoha. but they all lacked one thing or another. be it jutsu creation, or that level of nature manipulation.

think of it like neji vs. naruto. neji was "greater" than naruto. he had a firmer grasp of the basics, far better chakra control, was an elite geniues of technique creation, AND had a bloodline. last i checked, naruto won.

[nizzoc]

just to touch on a few points. I am also a Yondai fan so my post might seem a little bias ^_^

I think Sandai want to pick Oro not just cuz he's a once in a life time genius but also his subordinate, whereas Yondai is a subordinate's subordinate... still with me here? And on the "professor" and "greatest nin konoha ever produce" thingy I don't think you can compare 2 great shinobi from different era. BUT if I had to, I would say Yondai had a better reputation. Now when every the filler end and they show KG, Yondai better have a lot of screen time. I know it's call KG not YG but still give us Yondai fan something to watch.

[RevKev]

just to touch on a few points. I am also a Yondai fan so my post might seem a little bias ^_^

I think Sandai want to pick Oro not just cuz he's a once in a life time genius but also his subordinate, whereas Yondai is a subordinate's subordinate... still with me here? And on the "professor" and "greatest nin konoha ever produce" thingy I don't think you can compare 2 great shinobi from different era. BUT if I had to, I would say Yondai had a better reputation. Now when every the filler end and they show KG, Yondai better have a lot of screen time. I know it's call KG not YG but still give us Yondai fan something to watch.

normally i'd agree you can't compar them from different eras, however in this circumastance they did know each other. they did see, and communicate with one another. it's at this point, not a current timeline, or before the third died, that i'm making my argument that while the fourth was an INCREDIBLE nin, astounding, amazing, and in all ways great, i doubt he was the strongest to ever walk.

[airstep]

Not enough facts, too many rumors. this topic is too inconclusive. Besides why would the 3rd be soo afraid during konoha invasion when the 3rd coffin started to rise.

[nizzoc]

When I read that Sandai was "the professor" and "strongest of the 5 kage" I was like Sandai was that great? Then I also read about Yondai's "the greatest nin konoha ever produce" I was like "whoa" ok since we're all debating base on what we read from character or from what Kishi is telling us through his character, what about Kakashi telling Naruto that he is "the only nin" that is "able to suprass Yondai" now dont tell me that when you read that you were like "whoa" cuz I was.

[RevKev]

before this goes any further, i too think the fourth was ASTOUNDING. i have NOTHING but the utmost respect for him. yes, i was in awe when kakashi said naruto had the potential to surpass him? this is my jaw hitting the floor.

yes, i too think he was the most powerful of the hokage, and the greatest ninja to ever come from konoha. i do not however agree he was the greatest hokage, or the most powerful ninja to ever come out of konoha.

[airstep]

Dude i knew that this was gonna happen when i heard that the 4th was the greatest of them all. The plot is very simple to figure out, err the big pictures, i'm not too good at predicting the small details.

but right now without more history about yondamie theres not much to argument about.

[nizzoc]

yes, i too think he was the most powerful of the hokage, and the greatest ninja to ever come from konoha. i do not however agree he was the greatest hokage, or the most powerful ninja to ever come out of konoha.you kinda lost me here but as long as you admit Yondai is great, we're kewl ^_^

[RevKev]

yes, i too think he was the most powerful of the hokage, and the greatest ninja to ever come from konoha. i do not however agree he was the greatest hokage, or the most powerful ninja to ever come out of konoha.you kinda lost me here but as long as you admit Yondai is great, we're kewl ^_^

lol, i admit he was a baddy who could pwn next to anybody with a blindfold on, one hand tied behind his back, and balancing on his forhead. my only point, all that i am trying to say can be broken down like this:

Greatest =/= Most Powerful
that's it. i'm only saying that while it is POSSIBLE the fourth was the most powerful, it's not a guarantee just because of his title. i find it entirely likely there have been 3 nin who have surpassed him in sheer power, however they lacked his kind heart, and natural ability to lead. infact, it MIGHT be four, but the last one we've not really gotten to see much of in action.

[gorey-]

I think that When Sarutobi was at his best age he was more powerfulf then the 4th when he came the hokage... But IF the 4th had not died and would still be alive he would be the greatest and the most powerfull shinobi in the world.

[nizzoc]

yes, i too think he was the most powerful of the hokage, and the greatest ninja to ever come from konoha. i do not however agree he was the greatest hokage, or the most powerful ninja to ever come out of konoha.you kinda lost me here but as long as you admit Yondai is great, we're kewl ^_^

lol, i admit he was a baddy who could pwn next to anybody with a blindfold on, one hand tied behind his back, and balancing on his forhead. my only point, all that i am trying to say can be broken down like this:

Greatest =/= Most Powerful
that's it. i'm only saying that while it is POSSIBLE the fourth was the most powerful, it's not a guarantee just because of his title. i find it entirely likely there have been 3 nin who have surpassed him in sheer power, however they lacked his kind heart, and natural ability to lead. infact, it MIGHT be four, but the last one we've not really gotten to see much of in action.who are the 3 or 4 nin you are talking about?

[RevKev]

oro, jiraiya, and itachi are the three that i could see being labeled more powerful than the fourth AT THE TIME OF HIS DEMISE.

tsunade is the POSSIBLE 4th person, soley because she is "on par" with the other sannin, and in this case par might be above the fourth. do note, however, without seeing more of her in action, i can't let he have such prestige as a belief in greatness

[nizzoc]

Ok I'll agree with Jiraiya(my fav charc) and Itachi (one of my fav), but Oro(not my fav nor do I hate him)? jk...

yea those 3 seems reasonable. But Tsuna was the best fem shinobi and unmatch med ninja in her time. not to discredit her during the sannin battle, she beat oro without a helping hand, hehe but had Oro had his hand then I don't know...

[RevKev]

Ok I'll agree with Jiraiya(my fav charc) and Itachi (one of my fav), but Oro(not my fav nor do I hate him)? jk...

yea those 3 seems reasonable. But Tsuna was the best fem shinobi and unmatch med ninja in her time. not to discredit her during the sannin battle, she beat oro without a helping hand, hehe but had Oro had his hand then I don't know...

lol, i still see evidence that oro may have been stronger. personally i dislike him, all that power and he's still a coward. poo on him, he's almost as bad sasuke.

and like i said, tsu i possible. she is an AMAZING nin, i am in no way discrediting that, but in terms of power, she does, IN MY OPINION, come off as the less powerful of the sannin, leaving her as the possible 4th.

[nizzoc]

Ok I'll agree with Jiraiya(my fav charc) and Itachi (one of my fav), but Oro(not my fav nor do I hate him)? jk...

yea those 3 seems reasonable. But Tsuna was the best fem shinobi and unmatch med ninja in her time. not to discredit her during the sannin battle, she beat oro without a helping hand, hehe but had Oro had his hand then I don't know...

lol, i still see evidence that oro may have been stronger. personally i dislike him, all that power and he's still a coward. poo on him, he's almost as bad sasuke.

and like i said, tsu i possible. she is an AMAZING nin, i am in no way discrediting that, but in terms of power, she does, IN MY OPINION, come off as the less powerful of the sannin, leaving her as the possible 4th.hehe I'll agree with you on those 4... but still Yondai > Sandai hehe :wink:

[WhiteFang]

During Kakashi's Gaiden we saw Yondaime killing an entire army and he hasn't even the Hokage at the time

Then Kakashi saying that Naruto was the only one able to surpass Yondaime there is no way to pass around this

Naruto's goal was always be greater than all Hokages... kakashi knows that

[RevKev]

During Kakashi's Gaiden we saw Yondaime killing an entire army and he hasn't even the Hokage at the time

Then Kakashi saying that Naruto was the only one able to surpass Yondaime there is no way to pass around this

Naruto's goal was always be greater than all Hokages... kakashi knows that

i've been over ((perhaps in another thread?)) that to surpass a person in something, does not mean you are more powerful or greater than they, only that you have gone beyond them in that aspect. yes, naruto will surpass the fourth if he can finish the jutsu, but if the two fought right now? time machine fourth in, let naruto have at? we'd be having fox-filled pancakes for breakfast tommorrow.

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

did i not just break it down.

the third was called the "Greatest Hokage" and the "Prefessor" for knowing all the jutsus in konoha.the only reason the 3rd didn't chosse oro was because of his malice and his low compassion for the ppl of konoha not to mention his mercylessness.but they were close in power but either could win depending on oro's expericne and the fourths super geniusness.but the fourth wasn't to far ahead or behind and backed those qualities so he was chossen instead.so terefore the third was the strongest out of them all.and oro barly beat him so imo he was a bit stronger than the fourth and oro.and the fourth was close but not there it's just that if he was the third's age now he would be kicking ass as if he was 30.

[jode]

umm...just a question...u guys do realise that when oro was leavin the village that yondaime was but a child...if even born right? jiraya trained the 4th from a child...and as we realise, the 3rd has an issue with choosin a next hokage too soon, so the time between when oro left and when the 4th was trained by jiraya, jiraya leavin the village and when the 4th trained kakashi and then when he became hokage and then when he died (young) do u really think he chose the 4th OVER oro or he chose the 4th, long after oro left...

it dont make sense that he would have chose someone who woulda been a baby or a young boy over ORO? ORO was just a evil bastard and the 3rd didnt choose no one at that time...til yrs later when the 4th became a badass...that just makes more sense...timewise....

as for the 4th v.s. the 3rd...i dunno...i'm still weighing that one.

[nizzoc]

umm...just a question...u guys do realise that when oro was leavin the village that yondaime was but a child...if even born right? jiraya trained the 4th from a child...and as we realise, the 3rd has an issue with choosin a next hokage too soon, so the time between when oro left and when the 4th was trained by jiraya, jiraya leavin the village and when the 4th trained kakashi and then when he became hokage and then when he died (young) do u really think he chose the 4th OVER oro or he chose the 4th, long after oro left...

it dont make sense that he would have chose someone who woulda been a baby or a young boy over ORO? ORO was just a evil bastard and the 3rd didnt choose no one at that time...til yrs later when the 4th became a badass...that just makes more sense...timewise....

as for the 4th v.s. the 3rd...i dunno...i'm still weighing that one.I believe one of the reason Oro left the village is bcuz when Sandai had needed to pick a 4th, he chose Yondai for reason mention above by some1 else. So yea Yondai was born already

[KageNaruto]

I think that When Sarutobi was at his best age he was more powerfulf then the 4th when he came the hokage... But IF the 4th had not died and would still be alive he would be the greatest and the most powerfull shinobi in the world.


so... why did he give up the hokage seat to the 4th then? because he was more powerful perhaps?

[nizzoc]

I believe Sandai pass off the title to Yondai cuz of age, then the 4th die and force the 3rd out of retirement.

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

umm your wrong.when oro left the village about 8 years ago.kakashi was 15 around that time.he was way done with be trained by the fourth.and jiraiya and tsuande were sliping away from the village.

[airstep]

Oro as powerful or more powerful then the forth, you do relise that oro only seems more powerful cause the 4th died years ago. Oro had more time to gain more strengh, steroids. besides without more information about yondamie theres nothing you can say, besides he was the only one that was able to seal the 9tails demon, i highly doubt that oro could even do that now. hes not even able to lay a hand on naruto in 4 tail mode.

[KageNaruto]

Oro as powerful or more powerful then the forth, you do relise that oro only seems more powerful cause the 4th died years ago. Oro had more time to gain more strengh, steroids. besides without more information about yondamie theres nothing you can say, besides he was the only one that was able to seal the 9tails demon, i highly doubt that oro could even do that now. hes not even able to lay a hand on naruto in 4 tail mode.

so why is it that when oro was at the chuunin exam anko said "if olny the 4th was still alive"

obviously means 4th is stronger :P

[DonEmu]

soo true, everyone keeps talking about surpassing the 4th, the dude is a serious shinobi, who knows his lvl, but if memory serves me right, yondaime was chosen over oro to be the hokage...

[animeking]

lol me i think yodaime was truly the strongest shinobi (if konoha anyways not sure about the other villages) he was the only one able of harming the kyuubi and sealing it when all the other ninja didnt even scratch it lmao lol! (or at least thats what it said in some kind of preview from that book that came in shonen jump which i read out of boredom -_- or at least sounded like im not sure really i was kinda of tired when i read it lol) obviously he had help from frog boss lol (gamabunta)

[DonEmu]

though gamabunta should know that naruto has kyuubi, but he didnt act like it though gamabunta made some sketchy comments about naruto...hmm...

[KageNaruto]

though gamabunta should know that naruto has kyuubi, but he didnt act like it though gamabunta made some sketchy comments about naruto...hmm...

he does know, he said himself that naruto had it-_-

[airstep]

yondamie is yodo.

[jode]

oro only left 8 yrs ago? thats news to me...but still, then how long was the 4th the 4th for, wasnt kakashi a jounin at like 13, so that makes the 4th the hokage for like 2 yrs, and thats if the kyubi was put in naruto when he was 8, cause if oro really was more powerful and jiraya was around then they woulda be out there too i believe...well jiraya at least...

who knows oro might have been the cause of he kyuubi attack

but that means that kakashi was 15...the hokage was hokage for 1 yr im thinkin, and naruto is not 15 now...cause he had kyuubi at birth...let me know if im wrong, cause you countered my point but im havin some math problems...

[KageNaruto]

oro only left 8 yrs ago? thats news to me...but still, then how long was the 4th the 4th for, wasnt kakashi a jounin at like 13, so that makes the 4th the hokage for like 2 yrs, and thats if the kyubi was put in naruto when he was 8, cause if oro really was more powerful and jiraya was around then they woulda be out there too i believe...well jiraya at least...

who knows oro might have been the cause of he kyuubi attack

but that means that kakashi was 15...the hokage was hokage for 1 yr im thinkin, and naruto is not 15 now...cause he had kyuubi at birth...let me know if im wrong, cause you countered my point but im havin some math problems...

didnt oro leave like a lil while after yondaime became hokage? my guess is about 17-18 years ago

[y.o.]

I think yodiame was only hokage a couple yrs myself, and I would think that Oro would have started killing off jounin around 1 to 2 yrs after the 4th was appointed then got caught and left!

So I dont know, yodaime may have still been alive, or possibly dead by that time which means he would have left soon after naruto got kyuubi!! He obviously knew of naruto so its a good possibility that he left after he was born!

In the anime we saw the 3rd go after Oro, and we dont know if he was the actin hokage at that time, but he said it was his responsibility so he probley was!

[Sabaku no Kakashi]

My guess is Yondaime was only Hokage at max for 2yrs. During the Kakashi Gaiden he was stil Kakashi's sensei and a jounin. When u look at the data book it said that Obito was 13yrs at the time of his death. Kakashi was 27 when he made his first appearance. Minus that by 12yrs (The kyuubi incident, Naruto'a age in part1), that makes Kakashi 15 when Yondaime died as a Hokage. It should be reasonable to assume that Kakashi and Obito were of the same age, anywayz the only possiblility is that Kakashi's younger, but I doubt so. This means that Yondaime was the incumbent Hokage when Kakashi was 15, but was still a jounin when the latter was 13. That gives a max span of 2yrs.

Anyway, Gamabunta once mentioned that Naruto was the only one who could sit on his head aside from the fourth. Although Naruto didn't exactly depended much on skill for that, I'm quite sure that's Kishi dropping yet another hint on Yondaime's strength. (After all, it doesn't seem ridiculous to think of Yondaime being able to sit on Gama's head by pure skill). This is some indication that he's stronger than Jiraiya, of course I'm not saying that alone can sufficiently judge which of them is stronger, but it does give a hint.

If Yondaime is stronger than Jiraiya, which he most probably is since u often hear Jiraiya praising him as an out of this world talent, a genius whom no one can match. Some may say that Yondai may be more talented than Jiraiya but not stronger, cuz Jiraiya's older, or had probably gotten stronger now.

But my point is if he's responsible for sealing the Kyuubi and a dozen other unbelievable acts, then Jiraiya's praise for Yondaime most likely stems not only from an appreciation of his rare talent, but a true assessment of his yet insurpassable strength. We dunno who's stronger, Oro and Jiraiya, but the difference is most probably juz a little gap at best, and with that, perhaps it's safe to assume that Oro is NOT stronger than Yondai?

[y.o.]

ummmm didnt gambuta say the last one to stay on his head was the 4th, cause obviously jariya can do the samething!!

[Sabaku no Kakashi]

ummmm didnt gambuta say the last one to stay on his head was the 4th, cause obviously jariya can do the samething!!

Hmm, from what I remember Gamabunta said Naruto was the only one besides Yondaime who could stay on his head, and anyway, Jiraiya himself admitted that even he couldn't control Gamabunta

[RevKev]

control him? now, like all legendary summons he can't be controlled, only asked to do things with the hope he doesn't eat you. but i just double checked, during the sannin fight, jir is very much standing on gama's head, and gama has no problems with it whatsoever. he makes a wisecack or two, but allows it.

and i'm not, nor have i ever sad, that oro, jir, or itachi where stronger than the fourth, i'm only stating that it remains a possibility. i suppose i could try and form a timeline to help with the whole oro leaving, 4th becomeing hokage...if it's needed

[jode]

well my main reason for sayin anything aboutthis timespan issue was because it was said said that the 3rd chose yondaime over oro, and he only did that cause of oro's attitude, thus makin oro stronger than te 4th if not as strong as the fourth which kinda amps oro's power as well, as jiraya's (sannin) but also kinda kills the legend of the 4th bein uber powerful as orichimaru cant kill itachi and had a helluva time fightin a POISONED jiraya...

signs also point to the fact that he didnt choose the 4th OVER oro, he chose the 4th later, after oro left, and oro had obviously been keeping tabs on the village so he'd know about the attack of the kyuubi (if it wasnt his fault to begin with.) during this time the 4th was prolly yet a child and now training under jiraya, who was seen during this period in his jounin attire, and sarutobi was obviously hokage at this time, and we know how seriously he takes choosiing a next cause he took so damn long.

also we have to kakashi's age during this time as well, he had to be round 13 when the 4th was a jounin and 15 when the 4th was hokage, this leaves yondaime with 2 yrs max as hokage, maybe the 4th's performance with kakashi in the gaiden was his last mission as a jounin.

point is, that it seems that oro could never have left 8 yrs ago, and that yondaime was chosen after oro left, so the 2 were never compared by the 3rd for hokage...

THAT IS ALL...LOL

[RevKev]

but the kyuubi was not sealed away 8 years ago, putting the death of the fourth at TWELVE years ago ((if we go PRE time skip)). we don't know for sure when oro left, but like i said, we can always put a time line to gether just to help everything flow a little better!

[jounin101]

A time line would help alot, so go ahead and make it , RevKev.
During that time, i'll try to make some sense of this whole thing.
(breathe in.....breath out)
First off, Orochimaru left within a small time(days to maybe months) of 4th being appointed. Orochimaru not being picked because of his twisted ideals has nothing to do with strength, that just eliminated him from becoming 4th all together. If 4th was so quickly appointed over Orochimaru, then there are 2 circumstances.
1. there might not have been too much of a difference in power between the 2 potential kages
2. 4th was superior(from a little to a landslide) to Orochimaru, but 3rd's favoritism for oro led him to be picked, until 3rd learned of his "goals".
I support the second one the most. The anko/3rd hokage conversation seems to be the best indicator that the 4th was stronger than Orochimaru and even the current 3rd.

The biggest question is the comparison between the 4th and the 3rd at his prime. IMO, there wasnt much difference between of the prime 3rd's knowledge of jutsu(he was "the professor") and the 4th's powers. But calling 4th the "greatest ninja from konoha" signals to me that the 4th was overall stronger.

[nizzoc]

A time line would help alot, so go ahead and make it , RevKev.
During that time, i'll try to make some sense of this whole thing.
(breathe in.....breath out)
First off, Orochimaru left within a small time(days to maybe months) of 4th being appointed. Orochimaru not being picked because of his twisted ideals has nothing to do with strength, that just eliminated him from becoming 4th all together. If 4th was so quickly appointed over Orochimaru, then there are 2 circumstances.
1. there might not have been too much of a difference in power between the 2 potential kages
2. 4th was superior(from a little to a landslide) to Orochimaru, but 3rd's favoritism for oro led him to be picked, until 3rd learned of his "goals".
I support the second one the most. The anko/3rd hokage conversation seems to be the best indicator that the 4th was stronger than Orochimaru and even the current 3rd.

The biggest question is the comparison between the 4th and the 3rd at his prime. IMO, there wasnt much difference between of the prime 3rd's knowledge of jutsu(he was "the professor") and the 4th's powers. But calling 4th the "greatest ninja from konoha" signals to me that the 4th was overall stronger.each of your point(until teh 9tk and 5tk thingy) made sense and I agree with your statement

[RevKev]

2. 4th was superior(from a little to a landslide) to Orochimaru, but 3rd's favoritism for oro led him to be picked, until 3rd learned of his "goals".
I support the second one the most. The anko/3rd hokage conversation seems to be the best indicator that the 4th was stronger than Orochimaru and even the current 3rd.

an EXTREMELY valid, good, and through point jounin, and one i honestly never gave thought to. i do, however, maintain the possibility that jir, oro, and itachi could very well be stronger than the fourth. i don't believe so, i think the fourth could easily pwn joo noobs, but i can't let go of the fact the possibility remains.

maybe why i'm never considered a fanboy, hmm?

[KageNaruto]

well my main reason for sayin anything aboutthis timespan issue was because it was said said that the 3rd chose yondaime over oro, and he only did that cause of oro's attitude, thus makin oro stronger than te 4th if not as strong as the fourth which kinda amps oro's power as well, as jiraya's (sannin) but also kinda kills the legend of the 4th bein uber powerful as orichimaru cant kill itachi and had a helluva time fightin a POISONED jiraya...

signs also point to the fact that he didnt choose the 4th OVER oro, he chose the 4th later, after oro left, and oro had obviously been keeping tabs on the village so he'd know about the attack of the kyuubi (if it wasnt his fault to begin with.) during this time the 4th was prolly yet a child and now training under jiraya, who was seen during this period in his jounin attire, and sarutobi was obviously hokage at this time, and we know how seriously he takes choosiing a next cause he took so damn long.

also we have to kakashi's age during this time as well, he had to be round 13 when the 4th was a jounin and 15 when the 4th was hokage, this leaves yondaime with 2 yrs max as hokage, maybe the 4th's performance with kakashi in the gaiden was his last mission as a jounin.

point is, that it seems that oro could never have left 8 yrs ago, and that yondaime was chosen after oro left, so the 2 were never compared by the 3rd for hokage...

THAT IS ALL...LOL

jode, yondaime was chosen because he was such an amazing ninja. sarutobi explained that. even though sarutobi raised oro and knew his ambition etc, he still gave the position to the 4th just because of what an amazing ninja he was. oro's attitude came afterward, because of spite

[Sabaku no Kakashi]

well my main reason for sayin anything aboutthis timespan issue was because it was said said that the 3rd chose yondaime over oro, and he only did that cause of oro's attitude, thus makin oro stronger than te 4th if not as strong as the fourth which kinda amps oro's power as well, as jiraya's (sannin) but also kinda kills the legend of the 4th bein uber powerful as orichimaru cant kill itachi and had a helluva time fightin a POISONED jiraya...

signs also point to the fact that he didnt choose the 4th OVER oro, he chose the 4th later, after oro left, and oro had obviously been keeping tabs on the village so he'd know about the attack of the kyuubi (if it wasnt his fault to begin with.) during this time the 4th was prolly yet a child and now training under jiraya, who was seen during this period in his jounin attire, and sarutobi was obviously hokage at this time, and we know how seriously he takes choosiing a next cause he took so damn long.

also we have to kakashi's age during this time as well, he had to be round 13 when the 4th was a jounin and 15 when the 4th was hokage, this leaves yondaime with 2 yrs max as hokage, maybe the 4th's performance with kakashi in the gaiden was his last mission as a jounin.

point is, that it seems that oro could never have left 8 yrs ago, and that yondaime was chosen after oro left, so the 2 were never compared by the 3rd for hokage...

THAT IS ALL...LOL

jode, yondaime was chosen because he was such an amazing ninja. sarutobi explained that. even though sarutobi raised oro and knew his ambition etc, he still gave the position to the 4th just because of what an amazing ninja he was. oro's attitude came afterward, because of spite

Yep agreed. And even if Sandaime did consider Oro as a candidate as well, it doesn't mean that Oro was on par or stronger than Yondaime. In every selection procedure there are always more than one candidate, and candidates are selected on various merits, not juz strength alone (pertaining to this Hokage selection). We all knew that Sandaime had high expectations of Oro, the latter being his favourite student. Naturally he would have considered Oro as a candidate too? That's not to say Sandai was practising favouritism,Oro was indeed an amazing shinobi.

And as an old timer and proficient shinobi (Sannin) he's probably more recognised by the villagers had his true colours not been revealed. Yondai is strong no doubt, IMO stronger than Oro definitely. But he was young, u seldom see a young person obtain the seat of presidency do u? Even if the younger person has the same/higher calibre than the older one. Perhaps Sandai considered Oro and Yondai not on the basis of power alone.

[y.o.]

And to add to that, Oro left after the 4th was chosen if Im not mistaken!

And another reason that the 3rd wanted Oro to be the 4th, was cause that was his star pupil! And the one he wanted to be hokage!

But the 4th was just, better and stronger, Oro probly had more experience cause he was older and that was about it!

[jounin101]

well me, and the 3 people above me are on the same page, but y.o, did u just completely reword my earlier post? :wink:

[RevKev]

yes jounin, haha, he most certainly did! lol, but as i said, and i don't see a need to say it after this, you're all 4 probably right. the 4th probably WAS stronger than oro. but that doesn't cancel the fact that the prossibility remains of the fourth not being the strongest ninja konoha ever produced. only the greatest

[Shino18]

but that doesn't cancel the fact that the prossibility remains of the fourth not being the strongest ninja konoha ever produced. only the greatest so far as far as i know the 4th was the strongest if only naruto has what it takes to pass the 4th how could someone else be stronger from wikipedia He is said to be the greatest ninja Konoha had ever produced and to have ever lived.

[RevKev]

but that doesn't cancel the fact that the prossibility remains of the fourth not being the strongest ninja konoha ever produced. only the greatest so far as far as i know the 4th was the strongest if only naruto has what it takes to pass the 4th how could someone else be stronger

/sigh

i want to make a post to this, but i now realise that all we can argue is symantics. greatest =/= strongest. to do something that someone else could not = surpassing them in that aspect. surpassing someone in one aspect =/= being more powerful then they are. never has anyone flat out, beyond any shadow of a doubt, proven that the fourth was the most powerful ninja that konoha ever produced. only the greatest. this means it is possible a stronger ninja was produced.

deja vu anyone?

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

timo the third wanted to pick oro but he couldn't because of his personality but oro was alreadying do experiments before yondaime was appointed ot hokage.and was oro stronger than the fourth imo no but he did have alot more experience and oro was alot older so by the time it was time to appoint another hokage the fourth would be around the same age as oro was when he first started.