Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Itachi, and 4TK Naruto

[jounin101]

Since this discussion leaks into every topic, i decided it needs it own thread. People are making Jiraiya seem to appear stronger than all of the above, but that doesnt appear to be the case in the anime/manga. That is their opinion and they defend it pretty well, but here is a place where we can all discuss this without interrupting other threads. Just remember, most of these posts are educated speculation, not truth

I guess i'll start by saying Jiraiya isnt better than orochimaru, he can hope to be tied with him, that's about it. Jiraiya isnt scare of itachi, but Orochimaru is cause he knows what itachi is capable of, unlike Jiraiya, 4TK owns Orochimaru, that's a fact, and Jiraiya vs 4TK and jiraiya vs Orochimaru are both losses in his category IMO. people try to make him seem emo, and maybe that was a factor, but he is fearful of 4TK's power, so i assume he would have lost and no matter what supposed balance there is between the sannin, Orochimaru is too smart to lose to jiraiya.

4TK naruto
Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Itachi triangle.
by triangle, i dont mean they are even strength wise, i mean that there is evidence pointing that there is some kind of balance btw them.
feel free to comment

[y.o.]

I think 4TKNaruto owns them all, 2nd is Itachi, then Oro, and Jariya last, Im not saying any of them are that much stronger by that much, but I think thats how it is and who would win!

If I can gauge it in #'s, it would go like this

4TKN 100
Itachi 98
Oro 97
Jariya 96

As you see theres not that much difference but I believe that there is a edge there!

[regina777]

Since this discussion leaks into every topic, i decided it needs it own thread. People are making Jiraiya seem to appear stronger than all of the above, but that doesnt appear to be the case in the anime/manga. That is their opinion and they defend it pretty well, but here is a place where we can all discuss this without interrupting other threads. so, this thread has already started with a clear prejudicial inclination on your part too :P . you should outline the case(s) in the manga and reasons more solidly, i suppose.

in my comments below 1 try to make interesting, unbiased and fair analysis on the points you have made. and hopefully should lay a groundwork for further discussion. i will try to poke holes.


I guess i'll start by saying Jiraiya isnt better than orochimaru, he can hope to be tied with him, that's about it. Jiraiya isnt scare of itachi, but Orochimaru is cause he knows what itachi is capable of, unlike Jiraiya,
can you say whether both itachi and kisame know about jiraiya and his jutsus? They were intimidated to face jiraiya and didnt know about his frog stomach priison jutsu. being scared of someone doesnt always mean you know about them, their jutsu's, etc. You probably may have heard about them. But of course that is, i should say may, not be the case for Oro- he and Itachi were in the same organization and he joined because he wanted itachi's body (sharingan).

itachi and kisame- each of them extremely strong. kisame with the largest chakra storehouse in all akatsuki. itachi's story most people know. Two grreat akatsuki members agreed with each other that they will both die just to kill Jiraiya-sama. What analysis or conclusion can people make from this?


4TK owns Orochimaru, that's a fact,
this is true. But arent there questions here too? What comes to mind is why does Oro want sasukes body? Why at the end of the fight with 4TK-Naruto did Oro say that the body he was in had started rejecting him? could it have been that sasukes body may have given him a better chance at fighting this form of naruto? does it mean that Oro may not have been at his best in that body?


and Jiraiya vs 4TK and jiraiya vs Orochimaru are both losses in his category IMO. people try to make him seem emo, and maybe that was a factor, but he is fearful of 4TK's power, so i assume he would have lost
Isnt this reasoning heavily flawed? I am sure you saw itachi and Kisame both flee jiraiya's frog stomach jutsu. and you saw the surprise which stayed on jiraiya's face for a short while. can you honestly say that because itachi and kisame managed to flee, jiraiya lost? or that itachi and Kisame lost? Jiraiya thought he had them but they escaped. then he had that look on his face. Does that mean Jiraiya lost?
similarly, jiraiya faced Oro and Oro escaped. And we were shown the look of downheartedness (whatever?) on jiraiya's face. Does the fact that Oro escaped mean Jiraiya loss? Then both itachi and Kisame lost- even without fighting?
does such a conclusion sound logical or right at all?

anyways, jiraiya apparently managed to subdue 4TK-Naruto? maybe by making seals, etc. and came out with a scar. You call that A loss?
what made you reach such a conclusion: was it because of the expression on jiraiyas face or what? (just think about the facial expressions i have talked about earlier)


and no matter what supposed balance there is between the sannin, Orochimaru is too smart to lose to jiraiya.
Orochimaru is too smart to lose to jiraiya? i have always thought itachi is one of the smartest ninjas around. but i saw him running away from jiraiya EVEN though kisame, a KAGE-LEVEL ninja was by his side. I saw an intelligent and really smart Neji losing to Naruto? I am sure you can agree that at least Neji is smarter than Naruto.
So this brings up the question- does being smarter always mean victory? Kakashi should be winning every fight- dont you think?

[darklighter]

meeeh regina already said everything worth saying but just my own two cents,

to anticipate anyone saying itachi wasnt at full power we have to consider the lengths he and Kisame took to seperate Jiraiya and Naruto. Itachi and Kisame if they could have faced and defeated Jiraiya would NOT have spent time trying to hook him up with a chick so naruto was left on his own. rather if Itachi on his own could face and kill Jiraiya wouldnt it be more logical for both of them to kill him and get it over with and then take Naruto. if i had to rank them it would be

Jiraiya, 4tkNaruto then itachi and finally oro

[st george]

on the basis that jiraiya knows how to suprress the power of the 4 tailed kyubbi naruto i would rank him higher.

[jounin101]

regina, u have too many points for me to copy, so ill discuss them as u posted them. Once again, i value your posts and i like the way u challenge me alot, but im going to argue them. The thread may seem biased, but that is to counter the claims of jiraiya being vastly superior to everyone. I do think he is the most powerful in konoha overall, but thats because Orochimaru/Itachi is gone and Naruto's 4TK form is a form, not a seperate entity.

Orochimaru needs a new body again because it appears that 3 years is like a marker, not an actual limit, and it is 2.5+yrs since he switched bodies. and im sure naruto had nothing to do with oro wanting sasuke's body. that was his goal since before he even knew naruto was the kyuubi kid.


Jiraiya's battles appear as losses to me. for him to be soo powerful, he couldnt defend himself from getting hit by 4TK while using seals or w/e on him. jiraiya wasnt trying to fight him, i know that, but he wasnt evasive enough or quick enough to come out without a scratch on him, he couldnt block it with his "strength"? and we know that oro's sword(which cuts through anything) cant cut through the chakra/blood barrier around 4TK's body, what could jiraiya do. and if jiraiya did fight seriously, naruto wolud have probably advanced to 5 tails or 6 if he needed to. no matter what, jiraiya wouldnt have won IMO
Jiraiya vs Orochimaru is unknown actually, but orochimaru initiated the attack, so i doubt he would flee the battle.

Did u notice that Itachi/Kisame ran from the frog guts jutsu, not jiraiya? even after jiraiya arrrived, Kisame and Itachi were staying until he did that jutsu. U act like Jiraiya walked in and they said "oh my god, its jiriaya!!!" then ran. it seemed that they were ready to fight.

Of course naruto beat neji. that's almost unfair cause naruto had the typical "good guy beats bad guy and turns him good" anime plot.
The only fight kakashi lost was to itach , a much smarter ninja than anyone. he would have defeated kisami 1 on 1.IMO

In oro vs jir, yes i think brains will win every time, cause there isnt that much difference strength-wise.

Jiraiya is in no way, shape or form weak, but he isnt the genius of his team, Orochimaru is. Oro sees jiraiya as an incompetent idiot, do u think he would have this opinion if he was weaker than jiraiya? Has a dropout ever beat a genius on his own team?
sasuke does it to naruto cause sasuke is and always has been stronger than naruto. will be is a different story, cause naruto will eventually beat him

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

well here's my two cents just on the jiraiya,oro and itachi thing.

imo Jiraiya did lose agasin't oro 20 years ago when he was feeing the village.i can admit that but just because oro beat him 20 years ago doesn't mean he can still do it now.my theory on the whole oro,itachi and jiraiya thing is this.oro knows somehwta of the M.S and knows it's powers and that alone scares the hell out of him.and he knows he can't beat itachi.but oro also knows jiraiya his old teammate and oro and jiariya are very similair to sasuke and naruto.don't you sasuke is confident that he is better than naruto.the same goes for oro and jiraiya but imo oro's confidence in beating jiraiya is based on the past and well his own abilities.now jiraiya isn't scared of either of them. jiraiya has gotten a thousand times better since his last fight with oro and imo he can kill oro now.i doubt he had the mountain frog jutsu way back then.and for jiraiya and itachi it's simple.as we seen with oro and is scared of itachi and well itachi is scared of jiraiya.if someone doubts that they can beat someone the probability of them winning is low and their assumption is right.as we seen with oro and itachi.
so itachi imo can't beat jiraiya simply because he himself doubts he can and even with kisame there he says they'll both die.so this is basicly why i think jiraiya is stronger thna the both.and i'll post again on the 4tk stuff

[Ichee]

Regina had put it simply the best.

One little thing from me......

Jaraiya was trying to disable 4TK Naruto not fight him..
Also Orochimaru got half his body mangled by 3TK Naruto...

[jounin101]

oh my damn, its ichee. wtf u aint dead?lol.

and that second part would prove my point(although i was wrong about the # of tails) 4TK would own them all then.

[darklighter]

101............

there is no chane in HELL Kakashi would beat kisame. it took gain AND his team to beat a Kisame clone that had 30 percent of his original strength Kisame would poke out Kakashi's sharingan with saemadeha apart from that you seem to think genius vs dropout equals instant win for the genius. Thats ludicrous you think if neji faced lee in the preliminaries he would have stood ANY chance? plus when all is said and done kisame and itachi RAN from JIRAIYA's jutsu its canon theres no changing it. Itachi and Kisame together are definately stronger than a full powered Itachi alone but they still fled the scene

[jounin101]

for kakashi vs kisami, it is highly possible for kakashi to win. chakra-wise, kisami is on naruto's level(very very high) so kakashi, with an actually low level is at a disadvantage, but kisame seems to be less observant than most other nin. Kakashi's clones surprised him, gai kicked the crap out of him, and he didnt detect asuma's kunai had a hidden agenda and got cut. his lack of observance would be his downfall. Itachi knows Kisame, and he told him to be cautious of Gai, so kakashi should be as dangerous as gai sensei. Sharingan, M.S, chidori, and the other 1000 jutsu kakashi knows can give him an advantgage. noone is saying it would be easy, but kakashi has about a 50/50 chance.


There's a very good chance lee would have forced a tie against neji, but both would have been unable to battle if neji would let it last that long. shino would beat kiba, sasuke would have beaten naruto, shika would have beaten chouji(unless he would give up), so where's your point?

And u said as i did. they ran from the jutsu's effects. they didnt run when jiraiya came. they didnt run when he did the jutsu. in fact, itachi was still holding on to sasuke until the guts pulled sasuke in. they ran when he told them what the jutsu would do to them.
he is a sannin and that is great, but he is beatable. He is not far ahead of everybody. Its not even proven that he is ahead of everybody.
why doesnt he just hunt akatsuki down 2 at a time if he can take them like u say?
Orochimaru was a once in a decade genius. He was at the hokage level back in the day, but was rejected, and the 3rd appointed the 4th. He killed the 3rd, and Kazekage in a matter of hours. All of this points to the fact that he is strong.
what did the erosennin do to make u think he is so strong? fight with a limited amount of chakra and tsunade's help to fight against an armless orochimaru? Cause he is a "good guy"?
What actual evidence makes Jiraiya so strong?

[darklighter]

for kakashi vs kisami, it is highly possible for kakashi to win. chakra-wise, kisami is on naruto's level(very very high) so kakashi, with an actually low level is at a disadvantage, but kisame seems to be less observant than most other nin. Kakashi's clones surprised him, gai kicked the crap out of him, and he didnt detect asuma's kunai had a hidden agenda and got cut. his lack of observance would be his downfall. Itachi knows Kisame, and he told him to be cautious of Gai, so kakashi should be as dangerous as gai sensei. Sharingan, M.S, chidori, and the other 1000 jutsu kakashi knows can give him an advantgage. noone is saying it would be easy, but kakashi has about a 50/50 chance.


There's a very good chance lee would have forced a tie against neji, but both would have been unable to battle if neji would let it last that long. shino would beat kiba, sasuke would have beaten naruto, shika would have beaten chouji(unless he would give up), so where's your point?

And u said as i did. they ran from the jutsu's effects. they didnt run when jiraiya came. they didnt run when he did the jutsu. in fact, itachi was still holding on to sasuke until the guts pulled sasuke in. they ran when he told them what the jutsu would do to them.
he is a sannin and that is great, but he is beatable. He is not far ahead of everybody. Its not even proven that he is ahead of everybody.
why doesnt he just hunt akatsuki down 2 at a time if he can take them like u say?
Orochimaru was a once in a decade genius. He was at the hokage level back in the day, but was rejected, and the 3rd appointed the 4th. He killed the 3rd, and Kazekage in a matter of hours. All of this points to the fact that he is strong.
what did the erosennin do to make u think he is so strong? fight with a limited amount of chakra and tsunade's help to fight against an armless orochimaru? Cause he is a "good guy"?
What actual evidence makes Jiraiya so strong?the only reason oro killed the third is because with the thirds age his skills declined since the kazekage was his peer we can assume the same, as for the genius vs deadlast the genius allways seems strong and unbeatable at first bat in nearly every instance the deadlast surpasses in the long run. plus with Kisame his clone had 30 percent of his total chakra neji said the chakra was equal to narutos during their fight , that means Kisame has a over three times that in actual fact, Gai had to use his trump card to defeat just a kisame clone, gai and Kakashi are equal and niether would stand a chance against a full powered Kisame

[airstep]

4 Tails naruto nearly killed Jiraiya, Itachi flee away from Jiraiya, orochimaru is just a slippery person. Orochimaru left the orginazion because he said that Itachi is stronger then he is. Wheres that guy with the cool sig. had Itachi and Orochimaru in it, it was a flash. hehe made me laugh, "Do you like puppies" Itachi said. "yes" replied oro, "I kick puppies" itachi said, "NOOOOOOOO" Orochimaru repiles

So i guess it would be:
1: 4TN
2:Jiraiya
3: Itachi
4:Orochimaru

[Shino18]

i think that Itachi is stronger than jirayia rember when they ran they had put a genjutsu on that girl had used MS once that day and also when he used the amaratsu that was his second time for that day which is his limit also kisame would own kakashi in my opinion gai barely beat a kisame clone where did it say kisame has the highest chakra in Akatsuki?

[lonewonder08]

When Oro and Jiraiya fought way back when, I dont Jiraiya was fighting to his fullest capability. He's a soft hearted dude so of course he wouldn't fight to kill his good friend. I'm not saying Oro couldnt own him. I just dont think Jiraiya was fighting as good as he possibly could. But I don't think you can judge somebody by their skills from about 20 years ago anyway.

[jounin101]

[darklighter quote]the only reason oro killed the third is because with the thirds age his skills declined since the kazekage was his peer we can assume the same, as for the genius vs deadlast the genius allways seems strong and unbeatable at first bat in nearly every instance the deadlast surpasses in the long run. plus with Kisame his clone had 30 percent of his total chakra neji said the chakra was equal to narutos during their fight , that means Kisame has a over three times that in actual fact, Gai had to use his trump card to defeat just a kisame clone, gai and Kakashi are equal and niether would stand a chance against a full powered Kisame[/quote]

Oro vs Kages...Close, but not all the way. i think he would have had the life to do it during shiki fuujin if oro didnt stab through him with his sword. that cut his life span also. and Kazekage was gaara's dad, he wasnt that old. remember, he would probably be a peer of the 4th not 3rd if they were still alive.

Genius vs deadlast....there is no example of dead last surpassing a genius at this point. neji/lee would end in a draw, and naruto hasnt beaten sasuke yet. the geniuses from the past were all prolific ninja, like itachi, the 4th, and Orochimaru, the only notable dropout was Jiraiya.

Kakashi vs Kisami...if chakra won every battle, then naruto wouldnt have lost to sasuke. he has the deepest chakra pool except for kisame. battles are won with the strength of the ninja or his will to win(naruto vs. neji, sasuke vs yoroi), strategy(shikamaru vs temari, technically), or due to situations out of the ninja's control(kabuto vs tsunade, phobia).
kakashi and gai are similar level wise, but their strategies are completely different when entering battle. and as stated earlier, kisame isnt too observant.

i completely understand where u are coming from though, and i am not saying that i am 100% right. this is for conversation sake cause these threads need to stay interesting, not just "i dont like him, so i'll vote for the other guy", or "i agree"

[KageNaruto]

for kakashi vs kisami, it is highly possible for kakashi to win. chakra-wise, kisami is on naruto's level(very very high) so kakashi, with an actually low level is at a disadvantage, but kisame seems to be less observant than most other nin. Kakashi's clones surprised him, gai kicked the crap out of him, and he didnt detect asuma's kunai had a hidden agenda and got cut. his lack of observance would be his downfall. Itachi knows Kisame, and he told him to be cautious of Gai, so kakashi should be as dangerous as gai sensei. Sharingan, M.S, chidori, and the other 1000 jutsu kakashi knows can give him an advantgage. noone is saying it would be easy, but kakashi has about a 50/50 chance.


There's a very good chance lee would have forced a tie against neji, but both would have been unable to battle if neji would let it last that long. shino would beat kiba, sasuke would have beaten naruto, shika would have beaten chouji(unless he would give up), so where's your point?

And u said as i did. they ran from the jutsu's effects. they didnt run when jiraiya came. they didnt run when he did the jutsu. in fact, itachi was still holding on to sasuke until the guts pulled sasuke in. they ran when he told them what the jutsu would do to them.
he is a sannin and that is great, but he is beatable. He is not far ahead of everybody. Its not even proven that he is ahead of everybody.
why doesnt he just hunt akatsuki down 2 at a time if he can take them like u say?
Orochimaru was a once in a decade genius. He was at the hokage level back in the day, but was rejected, and the 3rd appointed the 4th. He killed the 3rd, and Kazekage in a matter of hours. All of this points to the fact that he is strong.
what did the erosennin do to make u think he is so strong? fight with a limited amount of chakra and tsunade's help to fight against an armless orochimaru? Cause he is a "good guy"?
What actual evidence makes Jiraiya so strong?

kakashi has much less than a 50/50 chance. and second of all, kisame was surprised by kage bunshin. big whoop. people are surprised by kawarimi all the time, even high level ones are. itachi wasnt surprised cause hes always stoic, he never changes emotions really.

kisame has much more chakra than naruto. and the clone did not kick the crap out oh him-_-, they just collided water jutsus. and itachi didnt know about asuma's knuckle baldes either,(he didnt warn itachi), woot. this doesent prove kisame inst observant. kisame is hasty and brash though, but nothing concludes that hes not observant.

and your whole 'naruto is the main character' so he wins excuse was lame. you couldnt think of anything better, huh?

[jounin101]

i know u expected more from me on naruto vs neji, lol, but i was stumped on that 1.

[offline_NG]

jiraiya is better than oro if we just look when they fighted with 4TK.oro only fight and run away but jiraiya fight and he has to do something to seal and make naruto back to normal so that why he was crush.

20 years ago,jiraiya let oro run away from village(I think it was about after the 3rd found out what oro did).oro said jiraiya was an idiot because jiraiya doesn't want to fight him.and what jiraiya told tsunade is because he feels unhappy when he left oro run away then oro kill the 3rd-his teacher.

I think oro jiraiya itachi are the same level(or may be itachi is lower) but when they fight with 4TK itachi will have more% to win.

[y.o.]

Plus Darklighter, that clone that kisame used wasnt 30% of kisame's total chakra, it took 30% of his chakra to execute the jutsu, which is a huge amount, cause they both also had to give 30% to the extraction ritual (garra) which was a total of 60% of their chakra gone!

Which means to keep the jutsu going probly uses chakra constantly and simply keeps him from using more powerful jutsu that are at their normal disposal!

[darklighter]

Plus Darklighter, that clone that kisame used wasnt 30% of kisame's total chakra, it took 30% of his chakra to execute the jutsu, which is a huge amount, cause they both also had to give 30% to the extraction ritual (garra) which was a total of 60% of their chakra gone!

Which means to keep the jutsu going probly uses chakra constantly and simply keeps him from using more powerful jutsu that are at their normal disposal!hmm i thought it fought with 30 percent of his strength? dunno ill go recheck, but i agree with your other points

101 a deadlast overcoming a genius is kind of one of the shows major premises, there hasnt been an example yet but wasnt the fourth himself a deadlast? hes hailed as one of the greatest ninja

now as for Naruto vs Sasuke the only reason sasuke won was because it was neccesary for the plot to proceed if you watch/read that fight again youll see Naruto doesnt get serious until Sasuke nails him with that first chidori. even thier final clash Sasuke went for the kill while Naruto just scratched his forehead protector to prove a point.

[jounin101]

the 4th was a genius(stated by jiraiya), i think. not a deadlast.
and that is very true, that is a major issue of the show, however it hasnt happened yet. and probably wont until sasuke gets beaten by naruto.
naruto hitting sasuke in the headband was indeed symbolic, but i doubt naruto was trying to prove a point when he was serious in 1tK mode. it just happened like that.

[airstep]

One tail was activated after sasuke broke his neck with that head dive.

Naruto did get serious with sasuke, But it wasn't to kill him but to rather disable him, break his legs and arms. But what would been the point if he had done that. Sasuke would be put underguard in the hospiltal, then he would exscape again with the ANBU and naruto snapping at his heels, then get away. ohh hehe this isn't the right topic. Damn you orochimaru. someone just kill him and sasuke will see that oro not strong.

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

the 4th was somewhat like naruto when he was his age.but quickly matured and became a genius.but here's my opionion on the 4tk naruto thing.

When Jiraiya fought 4tk naruto he was fighting with the intent to kill him.or seriosuly injure him.he was fighting to restrain 4tk naruto and turn him back.because he wasn't fighting with the intent to kill or seriosuly hurt him he hiomself got seriosuly hurt.and even with that life threatening wound he
managed to return naruto back to normal without killing him. what did oro do? not a dman thing and imo the 4tk naruto wasn't serious he just changed and seem to be getting stronger before yamato sealed off the kyuubi's chakra.oro couldn't do a thing to 4tk naruto and he even had to retreat.

[jounin101]

your first sentence is completely made up to sound good. the manga/anime says nothing about the 4th's upbringing. jiraiya just said that he was a genius, so thats what i go with.

and i know u meant "wasn't" in your first sentence of the paragraph, so i wont be an asshole and argue about that part.

there is no indication that jiraiya "fought" 4TK naruto. there was some contact which was proven by jiraiya's scar. But from what little evidence we have, jiraiya was "experimenting" the depths of kyuubi's powers, naruto went to 4TK mode, jiraiya got hurt, then used a sealing technique on him. that's the best guess i can come up with.

Orochimaru was outmatched by 4TK naruto, that was a given.
What could Jiraiya have done, from what he has displayed, to defeat 4TK Naruto in a fight(even with the intent to kill) without using sealing techniques him?

So lets see, 4TK naruto>orochimaru, Itachi>Orochimaru Jiraiya is an unknown(i guess) so here are the possible scenarios. I doubt there is too much difference in power, regardless of positions.
4TK Naruto, Itachi, Orochimaru, Jiraiya(my personal pick)
4TK Naruto, Itachi, Jiraiya, Orochimaru(eh, 50/50)
4TK Naruto, Jiraiya, Itachi, Orochimaru(my second pick)
Jiraiya, 4TK Naruto, Itachi, Orochimaru(highly doubtful)

[jp56]

yeah, im not sure ( i dont recall it saying they fought, if it did i apologize) but has anyone ever thought maybe naruto just calmed down after a while of rampaging instead of jiraiya forcefully stopping him.

[blorbic]

Personaly I think that Jiraiya > 4TK Naruto > Itachi > Orochimaru, but i dont think we will ever see Jiraiya fight anybody unless he gets killed protecting Naruto.

[Lightsabers]

Well, I'll say this right now: Jiraiya is one of the strongest ninja alive. This whole triangle (or whatever you want to call it) sorta adds up. Orochimaru knows Itachi is too powerful for him, so it's useless for him to even approach him on his own. Orochimaru considers Jiraiya to be his inferior because of their childhood happenings. Ever since Orochimaru left the village, he hasn't fought Jiraiya at 100%. So if you ask me, he still thinks Jiraiya is weaker than him. Foolish. Orochimaru doesn't know how strong Jiraiya is now. He also doesn't know how Itachi feels about facing Jiraiya. And at the same time, he doesn't know how Itachi feels about his strength. Itachi is a super genius. A master of the Sharingan. And is already a Kage level ninja. But even he knew that to fight Jiraiya would've been futile. Even with his partner, Kisame --who is another Kage level ninja-- at his side, Itachi still said it would be useless because in the end, they would die, too. That has to tell you something. But this is where some major points start to leak out. When Orochimaru fought the Four-Tailed Naruto, he got his ass whipped. And there wasn't a thing he could've done about it. And if the fight continued any longer I'm pretty sure Orochimaru would've been killed. On the other hand, we found out that Jiraiya himself encountered the Four-Tailed Naruto. They fought. And they fought for a considerable length, too. And in the end, it was Jiraiya who managed to calm Naruto down out of the Four-Tailed form (putting himself in a near-death state, of course). So what does that mean? Well, it's kinda mysterious. Did Jiraiya win the fight with Four-Tail Naruto? Most likely, because he got Naruto back to normal and continued to live. But that doesn't change the fact that he almost died, and it doesn't change the fact that Four-Tail Naruto is still more powerful. Orochimaru was about to die, too, if it wasn't for Yamato's interference. So here's my final judgement:

1. Four-Tailed Naruto
2. Jiraiya
3. Itachi
4. Orochimaru.

So yeah, Jiraiya did surpass Orochimaru in his years of absense. And why not? Doesn't the dead last always end up surpassing the genius? I'm pretty sure all of us understands that very well when it comes to the Naruto series. It's to prove that not everyone who seems perfect will forever be the best.

[KageNaruto]

One tail was activated after sasuke broke his neck with that head dive.

Naruto did get serious with sasuke, But it wasn't to kill him but to rather disable him, break his legs and arms. But what would been the point if he had done that. Sasuke would be put underguard in the hospiltal, then he would exscape again with the ANBU and naruto snapping at his heels, then get away. ohh hehe this isn't the right topic. Damn you orochimaru. someone just kill him and sasuke will see that oro not strong.

no, thats not what happened. this is the manga section. sasuke only did the headdive in the anime

[airstep]

oh hehe. i get these all mixed up. I usally have a few pages with different topics up at once.

[Ichee]

Well, I'll say this right now: Jiraiya is one of the strongest ninja alive. This whole triangle (or whatever you want to call it) sorta adds up. Orochimaru knows Itachi is too powerful for him, so it's useless for him to even approach him on his own. Orochimaru considers Jiraiya to be his inferior because of their childhood happenings. Ever since Orochimaru left the village, he hasn't fought Jiraiya at 100%. So if you ask me, he still thinks Jiraiya is weaker than him. Foolish. Orochimaru doesn't know how strong Jiraiya is now. He also doesn't know how Itachi feels about facing Jiraiya. And at the same time, he doesn't know how Itachi feels about his strength. Itachi is a super genius. A master of the Sharingan. And is already a Kage level ninja. But even he knew that to fight Jiraiya would've been futile. Even with his partner, Kisame --who is another Kage level ninja-- at his side, Itachi still said it would be useless because in the end, they would die, too. That has to tell you something. But this is where some major points start to leak out. When Orochimaru fought the Four-Tailed Naruto, he got his ass whipped. And there wasn't a thing he could've done about it. And if the fight continued any longer I'm pretty sure Orochimaru would've been killed. On the other hand, we found out that Jiraiya himself encountered the Four-Tailed Naruto. They fought. And they fought for a considerable length, too. And in the end, it was Jiraiya who managed to calm Naruto down out of the Four-Tailed form (putting himself in a near-death state, of course). So what does that mean? Well, it's kinda mysterious. Did Jiraiya win the fight with Four-Tail Naruto? Most likely, because he got Naruto back to normal and continued to live. But that doesn't change the fact that he almost died, and it doesn't change the fact that Four-Tail Naruto is still more powerful. Orochimaru was about to die, too, if it wasn't for Yamato's interference. So here's my final judgement:

1. Four-Tailed Naruto
2. Jiraiya
3. Itachi
4. Orochimaru.

So yeah, Jiraiya did surpass Orochimaru in his years of absense. And why not? Doesn't the dead last always end up surpassing the genius? I'm pretty sure all of us understands that very well when it comes to the Naruto series. It's to prove that not everyone who seems perfect will forever be the best.


Nicely fucking said..... I must congratulate you on how you constructed you sentences. Good shit.

Agree with most of everything you wrote.

Another reason I think people are misjudging Jaraiya as weaker than Orochimaru is because of Sasukes's growth. Come on, I think Naruto still has some shit to show off from his training from Jaraiya other than a weakened seal and transformed states. Sasuke has a "That" Jutsu that Oro forbade him to use. So do Naruto who Jaraiya forbade to us.

I think the technique that Jaraiya taught Naruto is so powerful that Naruto had to go 4 tails.

Anyway I'm getting off topic.

but I will rate the order as.
1) 4TK Naruto
2) Jaraiya
3) Itachi
4) Orochimaru

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

Lightsaber is correct me and himseem to share the same opionion on the whole thing.but jounin101 where in the manga did they say or show Jiraiya sealing 4tk? the only sela he has for the kyuubi is the one he gave to kakahsi to stop him frim growing more than 2 tails and if he gets anymore the seal is useless.when th e4tk awakened Jiraiya wasn't just gonna let him roam free destroying everything and he proabt didn't even have a choice the 4tk is gonna attakc him anyway.so they had to have fought.the way he reverted naruto back to himself couldn't have been a seal on yamato rigt now can do something like that which is why he was kakashi replacement.Jiraiya had to have beaten him back to himself or something of the sort

[Ichee]

I find that possible...

[jounin101]

possible, yes, and in my last posts, i said we dont know if they fought, if jiraiya sealed him, or w/e. all we know is that jiraiya had contact with naruto, jiraiya got a scar, then naruto reverted to normal somehow.

sorry, but 321 raw is out, wtf!!!, kakashi knows some rasengan looking ability, and there's mentioning of the 4th to naruto. another build up though, no contact w/ akatsuki

[Lightsabers]

Well, I'll say this right now: Jiraiya is one of the strongest ninja alive. This whole triangle (or whatever you want to call it) sorta adds up. Orochimaru knows Itachi is too powerful for him, so it's useless for him to even approach him on his own. Orochimaru considers Jiraiya to be his inferior because of their childhood happenings. Ever since Orochimaru left the village, he hasn't fought Jiraiya at 100%. So if you ask me, he still thinks Jiraiya is weaker than him. Foolish. Orochimaru doesn't know how strong Jiraiya is now. He also doesn't know how Itachi feels about facing Jiraiya. And at the same time, he doesn't know how Itachi feels about his strength. Itachi is a super genius. A master of the Sharingan. And is already a Kage level ninja. But even he knew that to fight Jiraiya would've been futile. Even with his partner, Kisame --who is another Kage level ninja-- at his side, Itachi still said it would be useless because in the end, they would die, too. That has to tell you something. But this is where some major points start to leak out. When Orochimaru fought the Four-Tailed Naruto, he got his ass whipped. And there wasn't a thing he could've done about it. And if the fight continued any longer I'm pretty sure Orochimaru would've been killed. On the other hand, we found out that Jiraiya himself encountered the Four-Tailed Naruto. They fought. And they fought for a considerable length, too. And in the end, it was Jiraiya who managed to calm Naruto down out of the Four-Tailed form (putting himself in a near-death state, of course). So what does that mean? Well, it's kinda mysterious. Did Jiraiya win the fight with Four-Tail Naruto? Most likely, because he got Naruto back to normal and continued to live. But that doesn't change the fact that he almost died, and it doesn't change the fact that Four-Tail Naruto is still more powerful. Orochimaru was about to die, too, if it wasn't for Yamato's interference. So here's my final judgement:

1. Four-Tailed Naruto
2. Jiraiya
3. Itachi
4. Orochimaru.

So yeah, Jiraiya did surpass Orochimaru in his years of absense. And why not? Doesn't the dead last always end up surpassing the genius? I'm pretty sure all of us understands that very well when it comes to the Naruto series. It's to prove that not everyone who seems perfect will forever be the best.


Nicely f***ing said..... I must congratulate you on how you constructed you sentences. Good crap.

Agree with most of everything you wrote.

Another reason I think people are misjudging Jaraiya as weaker than Orochimaru is because of Sasukes's growth. Come on, I think Naruto still has some crap to show off from his training from Jaraiya other than a weakened seal and transformed states. Sasuke has a "That" Jutsu that Oro forbade him to use. So do Naruto who Jaraiya forbade to us.

I think the technique that Jaraiya taught Naruto is so powerful that Naruto had to go 4 tails.

Anyway I'm getting off topic.

but I will rate the order as.
1) 4TK Naruto
2) Jaraiya
3) Itachi
4) OrochimaruThanks. It's very understandable. To me, Kishimoto tries to confuse us -- and at the same time make us wonder. And by doing that he grabs our attention to make us think about these things.

I definetly believe that Naruto hasn't shown us everything he's got from his two-year training with Jiraiya. He didn't really have the chance to show us anything. I mean, if you look at the situations he's been in since the beginning of the second part, you'll see that his opponents are very unique. And by that I mean that they are the type of enemies he isn't suited to fight yet. Look at Sasori: if Naruto fought Sasori, the only way he would've won is if he went Four-Tails. Look at Diedara: another Four-Tailed situation (if he wanted to live, that is).

As of right now, I think we have all the evidence we need to solve the Itachi, Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Four-Tail Naruto puzzle. It's all there. It's all in the manga.

[jounin101]

thats something i agree on u/ichee with. naruto didnt really have a chance to "fight" anyone. the only real fight was with oro, which naruto lost control in his kyuubi modes. he wasnt put in a 1on1 situation at all since the time skip. he appearantly got better at activating and using rasengan and quicker at shadow clone. I also think he has much more to show, just like sasuke, neji, and many of the other former genin.

[kakashicopyninja]

i think wtk can kill orochi but not jiraiya but i think orochi and jiraiya fight would most likely end up with one of them suiciding to kill the other jiraiya in a fight and i dont no about itachi....i gess pretty much just jiraiya had better defence than oro

[Chidongan]

1) 4TK naruto, Jiraiya, Itachi.
2) Orochimaru.

just barely though.
i still think orochimaru should be with the rest of them.

[imported_partlink1]

people are forgetting the sharingan can surpress kyuubi chakra,

and itachi can beat jirayia well kisame said something like if you hadn't used it so much you could of taken him
note thats paraphrasing

so
1.itachi
2.jiraya
3.4tknaruto
4.moral oro

[eighttailedfox]

Maybe its just me, but I don't see 4T Naruto being stronger then most of the people there. When 4t Naruto fought Oro I dont think he really won the fight, Oro retreating wasnt becuase of defeat. 4tNaruto= sucide bomber, he hurts everything in range friend or foe theres just no sense fighting him becuase in 20 minutes he will have pummeled his own body so bad with his chakara hed be unconcuis. Orochamaru leaving the blast range wasnt becuase he was weak it was more common sense.
4tNaruto vs itachi. Would naruto even get to 4t? Naruto wasnt able to do anything with kyubi against saskue, and itachi is probably stronger then saskue there fighting stlye is kind of diffrent though......
Jiryai was able to survive 4t Naruto, which means hes stronger becuase once naruto leaves 4t hes hopless, most likely because he wont be concius.....
As for Itachi V Oro , Oro v Jiryai , Itachi v Jiryai thats mostly up to opion however this is what i think Oro > jiryai Itachi > Jiryai Oro> Itachi
Oro is stronger then Jiryai most people agree on that.
Itachi v Jiryai. itachi and kisame went to kohona purely as a recon mission and to catch up on some old relationships, scouts ussualy dont pick fights with enemy leaders in enemy cities. Kurenai isnt on the same lvl as jiryai and the others in kohona, which is why they didnt mind fighting her and asuma. (asuma is strong but not stronger then bolth itachi and kisame).
Orochimaru would find a way to defeat itachi, hes been sparring and teaching someone who has the sharingan for 2+ years now and he knows enough jutsu to find a weak spot..
Orochimaru
Itachi
Jiryai
4TNaruto

[DonEmu]

Maybe its just me, but I don't see 4T Naruto being stronger then most of the people there. When 4t Naruto fought Oro I dont think he really won the fight, Oro retreating wasnt becuase of defeat. 4tNaruto= sucide bomber, he hurts everything in range friend or foe theres just no sense fighting him becuase in 20 minutes he will have pummeled his own body so bad with his chakara hed be unconcuis. Orochamaru leaving the blast range wasnt becuase he was weak it was more common sense.
4tNaruto vs itachi. Would naruto even get to 4t? Naruto wasnt able to do anything with kyubi against saskue, and itachi is probably stronger then saskue there fighting stlye is kind of diffrent though......
Jiryai was able to survive 4t Naruto, which means hes stronger becuase once naruto leaves 4t hes hopless, most likely because he wont be concius.....
As for Itachi V Oro , Oro v Jiryai , Itachi v Jiryai thats mostly up to opion however this is what i think Oro > jiryai Itachi > Jiryai Oro> Itachi
Oro is stronger then Jiryai most people agree on that.
Itachi v Jiryai. itachi and kisame went to kohona purely as a recon mission and to catch up on some old relationships, scouts ussualy dont pick fights with enemy leaders in enemy cities. Kurenai isnt on the same lvl as jiryai and the others in kohona, which is why they didnt mind fighting her and asuma. (asuma is strong but not stronger then bolth itachi and kisame).
Orochimaru would find a way to defeat itachi, hes been sparring and teaching someone who has the sharingan for 2+ years now and he knows enough jutsu to find a weak spot..
Orochimaru
Itachi
Jiryai
4TNaruto

Hmm, very interesting but you have no idea how jiraiya survived the 4tk naruto, for all you know right be4 naruto was about to finish him off he ran out of steam. Orochimaru said so himself to kabuto that itachi had now surpassed him and that is why he left akastuki, that is one of the fundamental reasons orochimaru wants the sharingan, because once he has sasuke, the eye-jutsu advantages of itachi are kinda gone. as for jiraiya being weaker than orochimaru, that is also a matter of opinion, you cant pick a strongest from what has happened so far. i think naruto happens to be strong, the nine-tails actually gets in the way in my opinion, he cant seem to focus in battle due to the kyuubi's rage and i have a feeling his forbidden technique is what cause the 4tk incident with jiraiya. also after kisame and itachi left naruto and jiraiya, jiraiya made the comment that it was all he could do to make them run away, implying battling them would put him at a disadvantage, because the logical thing to do if he were stronger would be to kill them then. oh and the reason why itachi left without finishing the fight with gai and asuma was because he had used the eye-jutsu and it leaves him too vulnerable. 8)

oh well, i am done with my rant.this is my rating

1.Itachi
2.Tie btn Orochimaru and Jiraiya
4.4tk Naruto

[KageNaruto]

Maybe its just me, but I don't see 4T Naruto being stronger then most of the people there. When 4t Naruto fought Oro I dont think he really won the fight, Oro retreating wasnt becuase of defeat. 4tNaruto= sucide bomber, he hurts everything in range friend or foe theres just no sense fighting him becuase in 20 minutes he will have pummeled his own body so bad with his chakara hed be unconcuis. Orochamaru leaving the blast range wasnt becuase he was weak it was more common sense.
4tNaruto vs itachi. Would naruto even get to 4t? Naruto wasnt able to do anything with kyubi against saskue, and itachi is probably stronger then saskue there fighting stlye is kind of diffrent though......
Jiryai was able to survive 4t Naruto, which means hes stronger becuase once naruto leaves 4t hes hopless, most likely because he wont be concius.....
As for Itachi V Oro , Oro v Jiryai , Itachi v Jiryai thats mostly up to opion however this is what i think Oro > jiryai Itachi > Jiryai Oro> Itachi
Oro is stronger then Jiryai most people agree on that.
Itachi v Jiryai. itachi and kisame went to kohona purely as a recon mission and to catch up on some old relationships, scouts ussualy dont pick fights with enemy leaders in enemy cities. Kurenai isnt on the same lvl as jiryai and the others in kohona, which is why they didnt mind fighting her and asuma. (asuma is strong but not stronger then bolth itachi and kisame).
Orochimaru would find a way to defeat itachi, hes been sparring and teaching someone who has the sharingan for 2+ years now and he knows enough jutsu to find a weak spot..
Orochimaru
Itachi
Jiryai
4TNaruto

no, oro retreated because he was bascally drained and overused the jutsu where he comes out of his mouth, causing his body to reject him. oro retreated cause he couldnt win

[eighttailedfox]

We dont really know what % of oro's chakara the rejeneration jutsu uses so thats kind of speculation. But yes you dont win against a sucide bomber you wait for him to blow up and hope your still alive. Neither oro nor naruto died in the 4t fight but naruto came out worse i think.

[KageNaruto]

We dont really know what % of oro's chakara the rejeneration jutsu uses so thats kind of speculation. But yes you dont win against a sucide bomber you wait for him to blow up and hope your still alive. Neither oro nor naruto died in the 4t fight but naruto came out worse i think.

oro knows yamoto can seal kyubi. he knew if he knocked naruto away he still wouldnt die, so i dont see how its scuicidal for naruto

[kjrav]

Personally I think jiraiya and oro are =.But since Itachi,who is stronger than oro by oro and sasuke's belieif, fears him so I'm guessing Jiraiya has a trump card.Mabeyan automatic Kamikaaze or a powerful berserk form but somthing that gives him a Major edge on his opponents.

[eighttailedfox]

When I say being in 4t is sucidal i dont mean hes going to kill himself, i mean hes going to be hurting himself alot, its one of those things which they would cut you out of the story for 30 episodes for, (like kakashi) except naruto without naruto doesnt really work.
I think oro left becuase he realized he couldnt penetrate naruto's defenses, becuase he was being a meat shield for team kakashi, and becuase he wasnt there to fight naruto he was there to kill the late sasori.

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

jiraiya sustained a life threating blow form the kyuubi and it left a big ass scar on his chest.but he still managed to get naruto to revert back to himself.and after they both where hurt.so jiraiya would most likly fix his self up as good as possible and take care of naruto for a bit.he sustained a blow like that and still came out alive not to mention able to nurse himself and naruto back to help.what did oro umm got owned and retreated.and it's just my opinion but the list in considering my logic is

jiraiya
itachi
oro
4tk

i say the 4tk at best is around the sannins lv well imo he's equal with tsunade.but certain qulities like him being so durable makes him even tougher.imo oro can kill 4tk but at the time he couldn't his body started to reject him.and my guess is because of him using that thecnique so much and he does use it agasin't sasuke while he's training him.so his body wasn't in it's best condition imo.and jiriaya you guys already i say he can kill him too,and itachi umm well you get my drift.but itachi beats oro jiriya beats itachi and just because oro beat jiraiya in the past doesn't mena he can now and imo jiraiya can beat oro.

[KageNaruto]

jiraiya sustained a life threating blow form the kyuubi and it left a big ass scar on his chest.but he still managed to get naruto to revert back to himself.and after they both where hurt.so jiraiya would most likly fix his self up as good as possible and take care of naruto for a bit.he sustained a blow like that and still came out alive not to mention able to nurse himself and naruto back to help.what did oro umm got owned and retreated.and it's just my opinion but the list in considering my logic is

jiraiya
itachi
oro
4tk

i say the 4tk at best is around the sannins lv well imo he's equal with tsunade.but certain qulities like him being so durable makes him even tougher.imo oro can kill 4tk but at the time he couldn't his body started to reject him.and my guess is because of him using that thecnique so much and he does use it agasin't sasuke while he's training him.so his body wasn't in it's best condition imo.and jiriaya you guys already i say he can kill him too,and itachi umm well you get my drift.but itachi beats oro jiriya beats itachi and just because oro beat jiraiya in the past doesn't mena he can now and imo jiraiya can beat oro.

no, his body was in its best condition beggining of battle! you really think oro would plan to take on sasori who he knows is strong in a bad condition?

oro=full strength.

then 4tk naruto came along.

oro hadda struggle to survive, and ended up fleeing.

[y.o.]

I see one thing that people are fergetting is that you cant give jariya credit for sealing 4 tail and Oro fighting him strait up.

What I mean is jariya most likely had some of those kyuubi sealing chakra seals in his possesion, and got that wound while placing the seal on him! Jariya is a well prepared nin, and seals seams to be a specialty of his, sealing of the black flame must I remind you!

While Oro didnt have any of those at his disposal, so he had to fight, and he didnt know as much as jariya did or was even prepared like him to seal 4TKN chakra.

I seriously dont think that jariya fought him strait up and beat him out of kyuubi mode, especially since he gave kakashi some kyuubi sealing seals to use on there mission to rescue garra!

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

okay let me xplain the Jiriaiya thing man.

When jiraiya went off to go train.he obivously taught naruto stuff he ain't know.teaching him about jutsus,some cool new more ffective tajitsus about genjutsu and ninjutsus.then when they started to fight he saw his kyuubi mode.and at first thought it was cool and stuff until naruto kept progressing with it.growing more and more after jiraiya kept pushing him and then he saw 4tk.now imo after that happened he fought with naruto for a while thinking how powerul that form was and how can he beat him back into naruto.and then yea he found a way to refert him back which imo again he made up a sort of strong seal to seal him while kicking his ass.but yea he sustained that wound and had to nurse him and naruto back to health.but even still he still had to fight 4tk kyuubi a bit make up a sela to seal him with the wound and bringing him back and naruto health better thna oro's encounter.oro threw all of his snake moves including his sword is proably the best sword in the 4tk which can't even pierce him and retreated.jiraiya did way better imo he was even injured and did better.

[DonEmu]

one thing ppl arent taking into consideration is what at all makes jiraiya awesome. i mean it cant be rasengan because the 4th made that move and i am assuming jiraiya was considered a sannin be4 that, we hardly see jiraiya pull out all the stops...ever wonder what naruto;s forbidden move is, it could be what makes jiraiya soooo fierce..

[XxXItachiXxX]

IMO Itachi can pwn all of the above. He is absolutely a god of genius

[RevKev]

IMO Itachi can pwn all of the above. He is absolutely a god of genius

as well as a genjutsu wielding pansy....
and what about when he ran away from jir?

[.........]

IMO Itachi can pwn all of the above. He is absolutely a god of genius

as well as a genjutsu wielding pansy....
and what about when he ran away from jir?And don't forget,Kisame was there too.It was 2 on 1 and they still ran like some pussies.

[Lightsabers]

jiraiya sustained a life threating blow form the kyuubi and it left a big ass scar on his chest.but he still managed to get naruto to revert back to himself.and after they both where hurt.so jiraiya would most likly fix his self up as good as possible and take care of naruto for a bit.he sustained a blow like that and still came out alive not to mention able to nurse himself and naruto back to help.what did oro umm got owned and retreated.and it's just my opinion but the list in considering my logic is

jiraiya
itachi
oro
4tk

i say the 4tk at best is around the sannins lv well imo he's equal with tsunade.but certain qulities like him being so durable makes him even tougher.imo oro can kill 4tk but at the time he couldn't his body started to reject him.and my guess is because of him using that thecnique so much and he does use it agasin't sasuke while he's training him.so his body wasn't in it's best condition imo.and jiriaya you guys already i say he can kill him too,and itachi umm well you get my drift.but itachi beats oro jiriya beats itachi and just because oro beat jiraiya in the past doesn't mena he can now and imo jiraiya can beat oro.I have to say I disagree with you here. There is NO way Orochimaru can kill Four-Tail Naruto. It's not possible. And Orochimaru didn't beat Jiraiya in the past, it was just a huge fight in which Jiraiya was trying to turn him back from the darkness that had taken him. Even Jiraiya said it himself. Four-Tail Naruto is stronger than all of the Sannin, but between Jiraiya and Orochimaru, Jiraiya has a better chance at surviving.

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

jiraiya sustained a life threating blow form the kyuubi and it left a big ass scar on his chest.but he still managed to get naruto to revert back to himself.and after they both where hurt.so jiraiya would most likly fix his self up as good as possible and take care of naruto for a bit.he sustained a blow like that and still came out alive not to mention able to nurse himself and naruto back to help.what did oro umm got owned and retreated.and it's just my opinion but the list in considering my logic is

jiraiya
itachi
oro
4tk

i say the 4tk at best is around the sannins lv well imo he's equal with tsunade.but certain qulities like him being so durable makes him even tougher.imo oro can kill 4tk but at the time he couldn't his body started to reject him.and my guess is because of him using that thecnique so much and he does use it agasin't sasuke while he's training him.so his body wasn't in it's best condition imo.and jiriaya you guys already i say he can kill him too,and itachi umm well you get my drift.but itachi beats oro jiriya beats itachi and just because oro beat jiraiya in the past doesn't mena he can now and imo jiraiya can beat oro.I have to say I disagree with you here. There is NO way Orochimaru can kill Four-Tail Naruto. It's not possible. And Orochimaru didn't beat Jiraiya in the past, it was just a huge fight in which Jiraiya was trying to turn him back from the darkness that had taken him. Even Jiraiya said it himself. Four-Tail Naruto is stronger than all of the Sannin, but between Jiraiya and Orochimaru, Jiraiya has a better chance at surviving.

when did jiraiya say 4tk naruto was stronger than all of the sannin.oror didn't unleash everything he had agasint 4tk and i'm pretty sure he has a few jutsus and tatics that would wear him down or maybe knock him out.but oor is a sannin imo i believe that all of the sannin are capable of beating 4tk but it will be a very close match.

[HarlemDuelists]

this is so confusing.. in the anime.. ( i dont kno if anyone mentioned this before but oh well) itachi and kisame both agreed that they would be killed facing "him" by themselfs and even if they had reinforcements the results would not change.. who do they mean jiraiya? cuse naruto is not a threat to them atleast not back then.. but if they did mean jiraiya then wtf bout orochimaru lol he is supposibly stronger than jiraiya.. but itachi is stronger than orochimaru.. its like a god damn triangle are they all on an even level ?! this confuses the shit out of me the more i think bout it.. but ill put them as i see fit..

- 4tk naruto
- Itachi/Jiraiya tied
-orochimaru/jiraiya tied.. BECAUSE oro knows almost everything about him and smarts/experience with someone can change the outcome of the battle..( knowin the weakness) stating the obvious here ;)

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

this is so confusing.. in the anime.. ( i dont kno if anyone mentioned this before but oh well) itachi and kisame both agreed that they would be killed facing "him" by themselfs and even if they had reinforcements the results would not change.. who do they mean jiraiya? cuse naruto is not a threat to them atleast not back then.. but if they did mean jiraiya then wtf bout orochimaru lol he is supposibly stronger than jiraiya.. but itachi is stronger than orochimaru.. its like a god damn triangle are they all on an even level ?! this confuses the crap out of me the more i think bout it.. but ill put them as i see fit..

- 4tk naruto
- Itachi/Jiraiya tied
-orochimaru/jiraiya tied.. BECAUSE oro knows almost everything about him and smarts/experience with someone can change the outcome of the battle..( knowin the weakness) stating the obvious here ;)

don't you think jiraiya knows stuff about oro.here's how i see it.if oro is scared of itachi someone he knows he can't beat but someone he thinks he can beat isn't afraid of itachi and itachi himself is scared of him do you think oro can beat that someone.pretty confusing but if you read it well you'll understand but to make it simple how is oro suppose to be able to beat jiraiya when itachi is afraid of him and he can't even beat itachi.and yea thats sorta of a noobish statement but the fight with the 4tk can back it up.

[XxXItachiXxX]

ITACHI
4TK NARUTO
JIRAIYA/OROCHIMARU

leave it at that Itachi can pwn all. Amaterasu on either of those they are dead

[KageNaruto]

ITACHI
4TK NARUTO
JIRAIYA/OROCHIMARU

leave it at that Itachi can pwn all. Amaterasu on either of those they are dead

you dont know that, kunasagi couldnt pierce 4tk naruto, amaterasu might not either, i doubt it would kill him, thers a chance of injury though

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

ITACHI
4TK NARUTO
JIRAIYA/OROCHIMARU

leave it at that Itachi can pwn all. Amaterasu on either of those they are dead

you dont know that, kunasagi couldnt pierce 4tk naruto, amaterasu might not either, i doubt it would kill him, thers a chance of injury though

i say it would kill him.and if not which i doubt it won't but he might not die but get injured.but by popular vote 4tk seems to be the strongest person in the narutoverse so far.which imo he's not but he is a fierce character.imo i say he can show up the best right now but is beat able by a few

[HarlemDuelists]

that stuff wont really affect 4 tk naruto all that chakra bubble absorbs it but it doesnt help naruto cuse it slowly kills him at the same time while absorbing attacks and jutsu's even itachi's technique will have little affect on him.

[DonEmu]

i doubt itachi's black flame would kill a strong opponent. or he would have just pawned jiraiya and grabbed naruto there and then...instead of slacking the whole time skip...

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

that stuff wont really affect 4 tk naruto all that chakra bubble absorbs it but it doesnt help naruto cuse it slowly kills him at the same time while absorbing attacks and jutsu's even itachi's technique will have little affect on him.

okay you don't know that for sure so plz don't say it as a fact.and jiriaya summoned a moutain toads thraot which breathe's fire at it's hottest temperature and no1 has ever been able to break out of it.but yet itachi did by using a flame attack.jiraiya even had to seal it up because it was so dangerous.if itachi's black flame can't kill 4tk it has to be able to urt him.4tk is not invincible oro was able to punch him and send him back a bit.

[Azure Wrath]

give 4tk nariuto a few more minutes and he would've owned oro!

[Raki]

Dont talk about jiraiya being weak because you didn't even see him in his full potential. He has alot more jutsus then summoning jutsus and rasengan. but now orochimaru can't use his hands, jiraiya can easily beat him. all he has is that neck of his. And itachi, you didn't even see him use a hand-based justu, he only uses his mangekyou. so just leave this post TO BE CONTINUED.

[KageNaruto]

that stuff wont really affect 4 tk naruto all that chakra bubble absorbs it but it doesnt help naruto cuse it slowly kills him at the same time while absorbing attacks and jutsu's even itachi's technique will have little affect on him.

okay you don't know that for sure so plz don't say it as a fact.and jiriaya summoned a moutain toads thraot which breathe's fire at it's hottest temperature and no1 has ever been able to break out of it.but yet itachi did by using a flame attack.jiraiya even had to seal it up because it was so dangerous.if itachi's black flame can't kill 4tk it has to be able to urt him.4tk is not invincible oro was able to punch him and send him back a bit.

...so?

the sowrd sent him flying back a thousand feet or something like that. it still didnt hurt him ni the least bit, and its supposed to be able to "cut through anything"

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

yo guys are really puttin 4tk on a pedestal he's not that great.i don't see how all the sannin and the bad ass ninja in the narutoverse all go down a rank because of him.isn't there 2 of the swords that oro has?and his sword didn't cut through enma when he turned into a staff.itachi's black flame isn't gonna be brushed off by 4tk it's just not logical.

[KageNaruto]

yo guys are really puttin 4tk on a pedestal he's not that great.i don't see how all the sannin and the bad ass ninja in the narutoverse all go down a rank because of him.isn't there 2 of the swords that oro has?and his sword didn't cut through enma when he turned into a staff.itachi's black flame isn't gonna be brushed off by 4tk it's just not logical.

im not saying itll be brushed off, im saying itll do only a bit of damage, and naruto will probably recover from it right away from the auto-healing

[y.o.]

I think that jutsu in particular would do alot of damage! Its chakra thats protecting him so most physical attacks will have no effect, but elemental and ninjutsu, (chakra based attacks) although not on kyuubi lvl would probly be the only thing that hurts him!

[.........]

Naruto is just like Goku before he learned to control his SS4 form(damn,even more similarities :( ).Once/if he learns how to control it like he does lvl 3,or even lvl 2 or 1 he'll widen the gap between him and everyone else even further.

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

naruto can't beat the average jounin yet unless he goes 2 tails.so what gap iis he widening?if you mean the grown up rokkie 9 he's still not exactly leaving them.chouji,neji, and aasuke are in his lv abit or around it.nvm sasuke but naruto isn't that strong unless he goes kyuubi and i don't really count him using his own skills and not considered a factor when compared to another fairly strong character

[Devil~]

4TN
Itachi
Oro
Jiyria

[.........]

naruto can't beat the average jounin yet unless he goes 2 tails.so what gap iis he widening?if you mean the grown up rokkie 9 he's still not exactly leaving them.chouji,neji, and aasuke are in his lv abit or around it.nvm sasuke but naruto isn't that strong unless he goes kyuubi and i don't really count him using his own skills and not considered a factor when compared to another fairly strong characterRegardless if its skill or just raw energy,he's still powerful.Not everything has to be one way or another.On one end of the spectrum you have Kakashi & Lee(the former having low chakra and the latter having little natural ability,but both have very high skill),and Naruto on the other end with high chakra and low skill.Regardless of these shortcomings none of them are weak.Naruto may not have a lot of skill,but he has enough to get the job done.Same thing vice versa for Kakshi and Lee.I mean if you want to put it that way,I could easily say Itachi isn't all that great because he hardly uses any ninjutsu but just relies on the Mangekyou...

[animeking]

couldnt he roar those flames away? me i think that form is the strongest known thing so far >.> its like you cant harm him by attacking him and if you can he can just roar those flams away and continue going berserk o_O

[y.o.]

naruto can't beat the average jounin yet unless he goes 2 tails.so what gap iis he widening?if you mean the grown up rokkie 9 he's still not exactly leaving them.chouji,neji, and aasuke are in his lv abit or around it.nvm sasuke but naruto isn't that strong unless he goes kyuubi and i don't really count him using his own skills and not considered a factor when compared to another fairly strong character

Naruto has beat better than average jounin b4 so I dont see how he couldnt beat the average jounin right now! It has been said many times that naruto should be at least normal jounin strength (body), but doesnt posses the mental (mind) for the job, hes easily a jounin right now, and his jutsu are making up for the lack of mental, tatical planning!!

[zoldic777]

HELL YEA
what u think they put the 3 years timeskip for,he really improved alot due to jiraiya's training,he just didn't show it all

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

naruto can't beat the average jounin yet unless he goes 2 tails.so what gap iis he widening?if you mean the grown up rokkie 9 he's still not exactly leaving them.chouji,neji, and aasuke are in his lv abit or around it.nvm sasuke but naruto isn't that strong unless he goes kyuubi and i don't really count him using his own skills and not considered a factor when compared to another fairly strong character

Naruto has beat better than average jounin b4 so I dont see how he couldnt beat the average jounin right now! It has been said many times that naruto should be at least normal jounin strength (body), but doesnt posses the mental (mind) for the job, hes easily a jounin right now, and his jutsu are making up for the lack of mental, tatical planning!!

naruto beat a jounin before.plz tell when he beat a jounin that wasn't in a filler or ova.

[Raki]

he could probably beat most jounins but not all of them remember he didn't surpass gai and kakashi...yet

[XxXItachiXxX]

He cannot beat all jounins, not even choujis dad, shikas dad, kibas dad, inos dad, asuma, kurenai.

[.........]

He cannot beat all jounins, not even choujis dad, shikas dad, kibas dad, inos dad, asuma, kurenai.Until we actually see that happen,I'd reserve judgment.Besides,the evidence is stacked against that theory.

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

ty naruto ha snever beat a jounin.i forgot how that rumor even came up i think it was from the filler running arc and the hero water ova.naruto right now using his own skills and no kyuubi power what so ever can maybe beat a regular jounin because of chakra pool his cunning ideas and his jutsus.but naruto still has a long way to go.he's not thecniacly leaving anybody behind

[Raki]

He cannot beat all jounins, not even choujis dad, shikas dad, kibas dad, inos dad, asuma, kurenai. theres no proof of this we have to wait and see

[Shino18]

i say naruto can beat a few not so talented jounin without using kyuubi but with not the better jounins without kyuubi

[XxXItachiXxX]

This is a weird question but can Naruto control Kyuubi like use it at his will like gaara but be totally under command like Lee's Gates.

[y.o.]

My bad, he didnt beat any jounin w/ the jounin title, but he beat garra, who 3 yrs later was a kazekage, and neji, who was a jounin in tha same time span! He almost beat kabuto, who is obviously above or at least at special jounin status!

But youre right, outside of fillers hes never beat a jounin!

[darklighter]

I doubt Naruto did not improve enough to still be able to beat gaara. That said if he is as powerfull as gaara he could definately beat any of konoha's or the sands jonin.

[zoldic777]

thats obvious, naruto can't beat gaara, but now maybe after he lost his jinchuuriki he can't get that much chakra so maybe he can just control sand for a little time, but still i doubt that naruto can win gaara, maybe after perfecting wind manipulation more then he will able to fight gaaras sand using wind...that would be some interesting fight but there's no way the storyline can twist to put a fight between naruto and gaara :/

[darklighter]

your saying that gaara improved at a faster rate than naruto who was trained by a sannin for 2 and a half years? ludicrous.

[Aizen-diacho]

what he saying isn't ludacris.but narto does have the power and talent to beta garra.since garra lost the shukkaku i doubt his sand attacks will still ressemble it's hand and be as strong as it use to be.but garra is still garra still hard to approach and injure.i doubt regular naruto would be able to beat him but naruto infulenced by the kyubui imo would be able to beat him.

[DonEmu]

this thread has veered from the original discussion....how this is now about gaara i will never know...

[darklighter]

assuming gaara and Naruto both increase in ability at a similar pace. Last time around Naruto defeated a gaara who had surrendered ALL of himself to the shukaku without reaching ONE tail of the Kyuubi's power. Naruto now could definately beat gaara without shukaku even without reverting to kyuubi. But he would also defeat a gaara WITH shukaku assuming he used Kyuubi. I seriously DOUBT any of gaara's shields could block oodama rasengan and in the event they did once Naruto goes 4TK it's all over.

[y.o.]

Most nin, no matter who they are cant really beat 4tk naruto, even Oro would have lost if it wasnt for yamato!

And hes so fast that I think most nin will be beat while trying to take the time to do there most powerful jutsu, which usually takes time to prepare one way or the other!

[KageNaruto]

thats obvious, naruto can't beat gaara, but now maybe after he lost his jinchuuriki he can't get that much chakra so maybe he can just control sand for a little time, but still i doubt that naruto can win gaara, maybe after perfecting wind manipulation more then he will able to fight gaaras sand using wind...that would be some interesting fight but there's no way the storyline can twist to put a fight between naruto and gaara :/

well if naruto went 4tk, it would be funny, because it would basically be reverse of their last battle.

but if naruto ended up going 4tk i'd say gaara would definitly loose then.

gaara is quite cheap, float into the sky and jus downpour sand on them, its hard to beat that with any normal fighting stlyes that 90% of all shinobi seem to use

[darklighter]

how can you call a fighting style cheap? I would say it's ingenious to use a style that defends with minimum exertion from the user and attacks with one hit K.O's

[KageNaruto]

how can you call a fighting style cheap? I would say it's ingenious to use a style that defends with minimum exertion from the user and attacks with one hit K.O's

easy. just look at the way he fights post time-skip. cheapest thing ive ever seen in naruto, thats including hidan even.

its easy to call a fighting style cheap. theres 'cheap' characters in fighting games, well theres also tons of cheap fighting styles in shows like naruto were theres tons of diff. powers

[darklighter]

its funny that what you consider "cheap" are actually the most effective fighting styles. Its not gaara's problem if there is no effective counter to his techniqes, its his opponents problem.

[jounin101]

cheap doesnt mean its not effective. its actually very effective. like hitting someone in the nuts is a cheap way to fight, but it is VERY effective. cheap styles too advantageous against everyone.
and i think gaara's style and sharingan are cheap styles.

[darklighter]

my argument is that calling a combat style/move "cheap" implies there are some set of "rules" to combat. I would think to shinobi in particular any edge you can get over your opponent goes even if it's as low as kicking them in the twins.

[Raki]

But every jutsu has a weakness somehow...I hope so its not if you know the weakness but its cheap if you dont know

[KageNaruto]

my argument is that calling a combat style/move "cheap" implies there are some set of "rules" to combat. I would think to shinobi in particular any edge you can get over your opponent goes even if it's as low as kicking them in the twins.

there are sets of rules. those rules are made by the characters abilities, boundries, etc.

like i said, its the samw way as if somebody is cheap in a video game.

and cheap always ment effective/powerful. i dont get why you kept repeating that, thats what cheap means. overly effective, easy to hit, powerful, etc

[RevKev]

Ok, having reread that fight for the umpteenth time, I've come to the same conclusion, even stronger now than before, that not only was 4tk NOT winning that fight, Oro was just playing with him, like a harmless kitten.

I constantly hear people saying that 4TK was winning that fight, and that Oro would have lost, but reading it again and again, I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing Oro smack him around, play with him, and LAUGH at his biggest, baddest attacks.

And what's worse is that Oro was suffering from body rejection, meaning he wasn't just playing around, but wasn't even at his best when doing so. So, out of curiosity, what're everyone else's thoughts?

[Shino18]

isnt there another one of these but we really dont know what would have happened cause he could have just kept summoning that defense thing but he definetly wasnt playing with him cause he went and attacked with the sword which is like his greatest attack we have seen so far and it did nothing

[Aizen-diacho]

okay umm th eother thread was for this type of stuff.this is proably gonna get locked.but yes i share the same opinion but oro was not winning.if he continued would he have lost maybe because of his body rejection but i believe that jiraiya and oro are stronger than 4tk

[regina777]

moved !!!!

[Raki]

Kakashi has a chance of beating kisame....actually didn't you remember kakashi awakened his Mankgekyou? But it does drain alot of chakra from him to use it for a long time so he didn't master it yet but when he does , he'll have a chance agaisnt kisame

[KageNaruto]

Kakashi has a chance of beating kisame....actually didn't you remember kakashi awakened his Mankgekyou? But it does drain alot of chakra from him to use it for a long time so he didn't master it yet but when he does , he'll have a chance agaisnt kisame

no he wont. by himself hes screwd, with a partner he might have a chance.

gai and kakashi could porbably take kisame though, but id say they could take itachi as well.

and leafninja.com says the body rejection is from oro using that regenration jutsu too much, and it amkes sense if you re-read teh fight.

BY THE WAY, ORO DID NOT LAUGH AT ALL AFTER NARUTO WENT 4TK.
and before that, he was teasing him, trying to get him up to as many taisl as he could to see his power im guessing. im pretty sure oro could take a 3tk narut, but i seriously doubt sasuke could beat a 3tk naruto, or would at least need cs2 and it would still be hard for him

[y.o.]

Kakashi has a chance of beating kisame....actually didn't you remember kakashi awakened his Mankgekyou? But it does drain alot of chakra from him to use it for a long time so he didn't master it yet but when he does , he'll have a chance agaisnt kisame


Actually, reg sharingan drains alot of chakra, and he cant turn it off thats why he keeps it covered!!

I believe kakashi can keep it up for a whole fight, he knows his limits and wont go past them, he might pass out afterward, but I dont think it will be a problem during the fight!

W/ that said I still dont think that he can beat kisame one on one, w/ a partner like kage said, its a good possibility!

The reason that kakashi didnt master mange yet isnt for the reason you gave either, hes not experienced w/ aiming it, its still gonna drain a shit ton of chakra from him no matter what, it probley takes 20% of his chakra just to activate it!! And since hes not a uchiha theres nothing that he can do about that!

[jounin101]

"shit ton" nice!!!
kakashi's m.s needs alot of time to activate, by then, kisame would have attacked. he's hasty like naruto unless itachi stops him. kakashi alone would probably be able to surprise kisame a few times like asuma and gai did, but that's not enough for kakashi to win.
kakashi and gai would definitly own kisame though. gai put a "1 hitter quitter" on a 30% clone, so i'm pretty sure itll seriously damage regular kisame. and gai is probably a better decoy than naruto, so kakahsi would have enough time for m.s. with him. instant victory unless kakashi hits a limb again.lol.
i wonder about gai vs kisame though....

[KageNaruto]

"shit ton" nice!!!
kakashi's m.s needs alot of time to activate, by then, kisame would have attacked. he's hasty like naruto unless itachi stops him. kakashi alone would probably be able to surprise kisame a few times like asuma and gai did, but that's not enough for kakashi to win.
kakashi and gai would definitly own kisame though. gai put a "1 hitter quitter" on a 30% clone, so i'm pretty sure itll seriously damage regular kisame. and gai is probably a better decoy than naruto, so kakahsi would have enough time for m.s. with him. instant victory unless kakashi hits a limb again.lol.
i wonder about gai vs kisame though....

that wasnt really one hit. you saw how amny fireballs came out, im pretty sure each one began from a punch.

sides that was a 6 gates attack. you coulda called it gai's last resort 9theres a possibility of 7 still though).

it wont be as easy as you make it seem, but yeah i belive kakashi and gai could take on kisame(and itachi, and a lot of the akatsuki)

[Greenlitflag]

that wasnt really one hit. you saw how amny fireballs came out, im pretty sure each one began from a punch.

sides that was a 6 gates attack. you coulda called it gai's last resort 9theres a possibility of 7 still though).

it wont be as easy as you make it seem, but yeah i belive kakashi and gai could take on kisame(and itachi, and a lot of the akatsuki)

So long as they knew how to work together, I think they could definantly take down most akatsuki (not all once.) One of the strenghs of the Team Gai is their teamwork (notice neji asking for lee's oppinion on dosu's attack during the chuunin exam, and there quick planning and set-up for attacks in the kisame fight.) If Gai and Kakashi can work really well together, they can basicly beast anyone (well, not anyone lol.)

[KageNaruto]

So long as they knew how to work together, I think they could definantly take down most akatsuki (not all once.) One of the strenghs of the Team Gai is their teamwork (notice neji asking for lee's oppinion on dosu's attack during the chuunin exam, and there quick planning and set-up for attacks in the kisame fight.) If Gai and Kakashi can work really well together, they can basicly beast anyone (well, not anyone lol.)

man, i hate the keyobard im forced to use, each button is like 1 inch x 1 inch in size and you gotta click it frigin hard to make it work. i make so many spelling errors. really needa a new keybaord, this one is junk.

yeah, and im pretty sure gai and kakashi do have good teamwork, they were working together in the sound-sand vs leaf war, and even though they are 'rivals' im sure they worked as a team before a few times

[DonEmu]

well after obito died, i wonder who the new member of team yondaime was....and if not i wonder who taught gai cause he must have grown up with kakashi....they seem to work well together, though there is no indication that gai was ever anbu

[Aizen-diacho]

na i don't Gai was ever Anbu it really doesn't suit him.and after obito's death no1 proably replaced him remember they were chunnin's except for kakashi who was a jounin.

[DonEmu]

ya but still, naruto is the only genin on his team...i dunno wat sai is but anbu aint gennin, they prob replace obito unless they disband the team...

[y.o.]

I dont think they really stay in teams after chuunin really especially after one of them makes jounin, I mean look at the 2 chuunin who fought w/ asuma and shika!!

I believe that most nin work well w/ others and are used to working w/ certain teammates, i.e. gai, kakashi, and asuma! But there can be paired w/ anyone like it has been said, 3 genin need a jounin teacher, so after they get to chuunin, there really just working together!

[m.o.h]

hey guys i was just wodering about and it seems so complicated than you first think, i mean looking from previous encounter between them two we get the feeling that orochimaru stronger than jiraya. however we learn in manga chapters that Akatsuki does not fear orchimaru and also we got the feeling that they can wipe him anytime they needed. it also clearly stated on one chapter when sasuke said that he and orchimaru CANNOT beat Itachi. but in the earlier chapters when Akatsuki came to kidnapp naruto, they were frightned and clarified that they CANNOT face up to Jiraya hence why they tried to manipulate him be sending him a beautiful girl to chase while they take naruto, even when Jiraya reutrned and summond the frogs stomach to prevent them from escaping, they still chose to flee instead of fighting him.

So considering all these aspect who do u think is the storngest???

[airstep]

on those aspects alone it would seem Jiraya. but theres much more then just that. you have crononological difference, oro is younger cause of the forbidden jutsu.

Battlefield also makes a differences. A large Flat plain would proable give Jiraya the upperhand while a jungle or thick woods would give Oro the upperhand.

and i think in that mission to get Tsunade, Oro and Jiraya seemed to be evenly matched.

But given the fact that Jiraya gave itachi a run for his money while oro couldn't basicly shows Jiraya is better.

[Collateral]

Edit: so now that post is here i think i just say jiraya is stronger cause of all the reasons wich are already told here.
i dont remember if it was here but someone said it: he has the greatest history student of the 3th teacher of the 4th and teammate of the 5th. i really think this tells everything :D

[jp56]

ok, people are really overplaying jiraiya, there is no way he could have beaten itachi and kisame, if you read chapter 148, it shows kisame asking itachi Why did they run? its not because jiraiya was stronger, then were just at an extreme strategic disadvantage, and itachi, the stronger of two, used his MS 3 times already, leaving him virtually drained. ALSO after the fight jiraiya himself admits, he was only able to SCARE them off. I honestly think oro is stronger then jiraiya at the moment, but not by any monumental amount.

[jounin101]

I dont think they really stay in teams after chuunin really especially after one of them makes jounin, I mean look at the 2 chuunin who fought w/ asuma and shika!!

I believe that most nin work well w/ others and are used to working w/ certain teammates, i.e. gai, kakashi, and asuma! But there can be paired w/ anyone like it has been said, 3 genin need a jounin teacher, so after they get to chuunin, there really just working together!

yeah, you are right. in 327's spoiler, asuma announces in a flashback that they are all chunin, but gives them earrings to remember they were apart of team 6or8, i forgot. but even if the spoiler is wrong, i still believe you are right.

[ryaneck]

Just as has been ponted out, Itachi didn't actually say that Jiraiya was stronger. Itachi was drained, and while both of them had heard of Jiraiya and knew he had legendary power, neither of them knew any *specifics* about him, and so were at a disadvantage. Orochimaru, by contrast, is well-known by Akatsuki, him having been a member once. If they were to ever fight Orochimaru, it would be in a setting that was carefully planned, and they would wipe him out. Two random (weakened) members meeting Jiraiya, who is much more of a mystery, is a much riskier situation. That's all there is, I think.

What I don't understand is all this about the Kyuubi. It would seem that, even if 4 tailed Naruto isn't stronger than all of the ninjas so far (which it seems he is) he is at least vastly stronger than 3-tailed Naruto. It would stand to reason that 5 tailed Naruto is disgustingly powerful. But if Naruto with only 5 tails is *THAT* strong, then how could anyone ever fight the 9-tailed fox himself? The fourth hokage managed it, and, (I put stock in the all that interesting stuff about Uchiha Madara having a demon father) so Madara. Or, at least, he was able to make a deal with him. My point is that uber-powerful ninja are at least on the same relative level as the Kyuubi, so how is it possible that a 5 or 6-tailed Naruto could RAPE every single ninja in the Narutoverse? Doesn't make any sense to me. Seems to be grossly overpowered. I'm thinking that the situations were special.. that is, I'll bet that Jiraiya *did* manage to pin down or at least avoid 4-tailed Naruto in order to get him back to normal, and I'll bet that Orochimaru could have beaten him under the right circumstances. I just don't think he was going to pull out all the stops, yet.

Between the rest of them, it's probably a matter of their 'style'. That is, they are all very different sorts of ninja. Itachi has the sharingan and uses genjutsu while Orochimaru is big on ninjutsu. Maybe it isn't a case of one being able to beat the other two, but rather each one of them able to bet another one in turn. Say "Jiraiya-->Itachi-->Orochimaru-->Jiraiya"?


*My* personal opinion, though, is that Itachi is going to turn out a good deal stronger than we think, as is the Akatsuki leader, who is probably an Uchiha. Those two in particular will probably become the most pivotal to the plot and leave Orochimaru and Jiraiya in the dust. Jiraiya and Orochimaru must be pretty damned close in terms of strength, but as others have mentioned, Jiraiya, the 'dropout' would probably find a way to beat Orochimaru, the 'genius', even if it's simply exploiting overconfidence. Everybody ignores Kabuto, too. I'm willing to bet he's also a good deal stronger than anyone is led to believe. There's a lot he hasn't done yet. I don't think that anybody in Naruto, save for the 4 teams we've followed since the beginning, have actually had a chance to show off everything they could do. Even Kimimaro died before using all his dances.

In the end, my ranking:
Itachi
Jiraiya
Orochimaru
4-tailed Naruto


Maybethatwasabitlong?

[B0ukun]

Okay, I don't have the patience to read all of them. I read the first three pages and the last. Here's my opinion.

Lets start with the normals (People that aren't housing demons in their bellies)

Jiraiya VS Orochimaru. hard to call, both were at a type of disadvantage when they fought. Oro having no arms and Jirayia being poisoned. There for we've never seen either of these two fight at full strength. Jiraiya doesn't fight much and Oro always has some type of ailment. However with the help of Kabuto, Oro had the use of all of his abilities, Jiraiya had limited Chakra due to the poison. So his tech's weren't as strong as they could be. The past when they "fought" wasn't a fight. It was Jiraiya trying to bring Oro back to the village. So he wasn't trying to hurt him. Now will that happen the same way, No. As he told Naruto, don't be foolish, forget about Sasuke. He said that from experience. Jiraiya probably figures that had he'd fought Oro with all his stregnth he'd have killed him then. But still Oro believes that he can kill Jiraiya. I can't call it. Gotta see it for myself.

Next

Jiraiya VS 4TK
This one goes too Jiraiya. He's already shown that he can contain it. The winner of a fight isn't the prettiest one. It's the one that ain't shoved back in a little boys stomach.

Jiraiya vs itachi.
Itachi, I believe the main reason for luring Jiraiya away was the fact that itachi had already used the Magekyu Sharingan once that day. The running was do to the fact that he used it twice in the same day in a matter of hours. Granted, Jiraiya's no slouch, I just don't see any eveidence that he can defend against that level of Genjutsu. The only thing I could think of is if Bunta was to stab Itachi while he was using the tech. But then who do we give the win too?

Oro VS Itachi
Fear give Itachi the upper hand. Oro may have the ability to beat itachi but because he's afraid of him we'll never find out. Oro has been talking about how powerful Itachi is more than Sasuke. He doesn't have the balls to beat him even if he has the skill.

Oro vs 4TK
Hmmmmm. In the manga when they fought Oro was playing alot of defense. And in analization I would give it too.....4TK, only for the fact that once the Kyuubi takes full form The Blade of Kurasagi can't hurt him. Plus All of Oro's massive house building long range Ninjutsu have to hold be the biggest weapon in the fire country right now. See, Jiraiya will win simply because he knows how to seal it and can avoid it long enough to do so. The Kyuubi can't be killed. If you don't seal it, it kills you and thats whats going to happen. See the problem with gauging this fight is that the long the fight goes the more probablity there is of Naruto spouting another tail or two. He's like the Hulk when he's in that mode, all range and power. Invulnerable + strechy limbs. 4TK on this one if only due to that 4 having the ability to turn into a 9.

Itachi vs 4TK.
Can't tell fully but based on what I've seen from Itachi, and what i've seen done to the Kyuubi I'm going to give this one to Itachi. Simple reason. Sasuke can calm the Kyuubi from outside of Naruto's body using the Sharingan. I'm quite sure itachi can do it as well. I'd like to think so if he's stronger.

In the wrap up

Jiraiya VS Orochimaru
Tie.

Jiraiya vs Itachi
Bunta

Orochimaru VS Itachi.
Itachi

Orochimaru Vs 4TK
4TK

Jiraiya Vs 4TK
Jiraiya

Itachi Vs 4TK
Itachi.

That said the scale is Jiraiya, Itachi, 4TK, Orochimaru

Sorry its sooooo damn long

[y.o.]

At least you gave detailed reason for them all and it was interesting enough to read most of it!! And I agree about most of it except the fact thatItachi would beat 4tk, cause if you think about it Itachi doesnt know naruto like sasuke does, and I doubt he can calm the kyuubi in the same manner!!

[KageNaruto]

ryaneck i dont have time to read your whole post but i will adress this issue.

almost all of konohas ninjas were fighting kyubi and getting pwned. the 4th did not exactly fight it. fighting and sealing can be put into two different categories

[amod]

Jiraiyya is stronger..
Remember what Sandaime said at the last moment of his life.

[B0ukun]

At least you gave detailed reason for them all and it was interesting enough to read most of it!! And I agree about most of it except the fact thatItachi would beat 4tk, cause if you think about it Itachi doesnt know naruto like sasuke does, and I doubt he can calm the kyuubi in the same manner!!

But remember, Sasuke didn't know what was really going on until he Sharingan'd (Sharingan'd in a custom phrase patent pending) Naruto while he was in his head talking to him. I think it was the sharingan's ability to call faux mind reading. Saskue just wanted to know what was going on in Naruto's head so he found out. In fact I'ma research this.

[DonEmu]

ryaneck i dont have time to read your whole post but i will adress this issue.

almost all of konohas ninjas were fighting kyubi and getting pwned. the 4th did not exactly fight it. fighting and sealing can be put into two different categories

I actually wrote as much as him talking about what u just said, but it got erased mistakenly, i and dont have the patience that these noobs seem to have to talk about their points, all of konoha fought kyuubi and got pwned so it is plausible for 4tk to pwn most shinobi :D

[B0ukun]

After research your probably right. That maybe something that only Sasuke can do. Though he didn't seal it, he surpressed it. Naruto can still use the fox, he chooses not to. Which is good for him. I don't wanna see "the number one noisy ninja in surprising people" running around skinless. Sealing it is something Sasuke would have had to learn from (This is just through my flawed knoledge)

A. Jiraiya

B. The 3rd

c. The fourth

I don't think it's something he learned, I believe it has to do with his sharingan which may mean that Itachi can do. It is his target after all. There may be sound logic behind the ramblings of a perverted old hermit like myself.

[ImThunder]

after all..we never see what Jiraiya true abilities..travelling n research..will make him beter n beter..until now he never reveall what his true power..then he never afraid to the Akatsuki members as Orochimaru afraid of them..moreover, Itachi n kisame afraid of Jiraiya...i guess, akatsuki is an organization who knows all the abilities of all Ninja in Naruto World...so why would Itachi n Kisame afraid of...Jiraiya might be somethin'..more powerful than his image...he injured during thefight with 4tk,maybe coz, the 4tk is powerful..could orochimaru defeat 4tk if the fight won't last..?..but Jiraiya can stop it, from his experience n genius he produce a seal that can stop naruto from transformin' as what he gives to Kakashi during the mission to save Gaara...Jiraiya doesnt afraid of any Ninja in the Naruto World except of the Demon Fox...he's the 4th Teacher after all...

still Jiraiya the best

[B0ukun]

Well, I wouldn't go around calling Jiraiya a genius. If you look at the clips in his history, he was much like Naruto. Even Tsunade alikens Naruto to Jiraiya and as Jiraiya has alikened Naruto to the 4th. I think he would be considered a hard worker and therefore enjoys training hardworkers. He's already stated that training a genius isn't fun, and yes though they call the 4th a genius now. There are plenty of times in life when people aren't called Genius' until they are dead.

[Collateral]

Well, I wouldn't go around calling Jiraiya a genius. If you look at the clips in his history, he was much like Naruto. Even Tsunade alikens Naruto to Jiraiya and as Jiraiya has alikened Naruto to the 4th. I think he would be considered a hard worker and therefore enjoys training hardworkers. He's already stated that training a genius isn't fun, and yes though they call the 4th a genius now. There are plenty of times in life when people aren't called Genius' until they are dead.

its a little bit confusing...
1.Orochimaru said that jiraiya cant stop training those guys because they remind him on his old self (not in this words; but he obviously was talking about yodaime and naruto)

2.Later Tsunade said his new studient seems to be ruder stupider and uglier than the prevous one.

3.Than Jiraiya said Yodaimes capapilities as a ninja are unrivaled in the history he was talented with techniques incredibly smart and popular.

Thats why i have no idea if the fourth was a genius or not.
He was the strongest of all and Jiraiya was his teacher so he should know best but on the other hand i think the story want to teach us that a drop out can become the best if he believes in hisself.

It would be nice if one of you can give me a good answer to that

[animeking]

1.(Orochimaru VS Jiraiya) This match up has been done before, and the outcome was Orochimaru kicking Jiraiya ass. But hold up some people say that (Jiraiya) might have become as strong as (Orochimaru), I seriously doubt that and let me explain why, (Orochimaru’s ambition) here is a guy who’s dream is to become the greatest ninja by learn and developing the most feared and demonic techniques, Which means he’ll never stop growing until he reaches his goal or until someone kills him, he’s already mastered his immortal technique along with some others we have yet to see, so please stop underestimation (Orochimaru) he’s as badass as they come. And fyi when he faught against (Naruto at 4tails) he was not wounded or hurt in anyway, shape or form he was just testing to see if Naruto was on Saske’s level, which he wasn’t.


2. (Orochimaru VS the 4th Hakage) now this is where some people get confused, at no time in the series has these two men fought, where the confusion comes in is why did he became the 4th instead of (Orochimaru) who was next inline for the role. Well let break this down, (Orochimaru) caused that by himself, kidnapping and slaughtering his own village people in secrecy to obtain power (his goal was never to become Hakage).


3. (Orochimaru VS Itachi) well in this case Orochimaru loses hands down, he said out of his own lip that he could not defeat this man. This is my theory of what happen with these two. (Orochimaru) joined Akatsuki in order to get closer to Itachi and take his body for himself, but that in itself was impossible because (Itachi) has surpassed him and it does not seem like it’s just by a whim. Here we have the most notorious character thus far and the very thought of (Itachi) scares him out of his wits... I think (Itachi) gave him a taste of his power and now he’s spooked like a little bitch... Lets pray he doesn’t get (Saske’s body) in which I doubt because (Itachi) seems to have his own plans for (Saske) and he knew from the time (Saske) left for (Orochimaru) and knew exactly why he went there (Power) and this is what it seem like he wanted for his brother from day one..


I hope that kinda explain how I feel about this match-up between these guys….

1. you just underistimated Jiraya you fool o_o he was drugged o.o and oro had no arms it was not fair for either of them i say they are about even or one of them maybe stronger

2.bah i dunno how to comment but i still say Yondaime was most likly stronger than oro in my opinion he was most likely the strongest Shinobi with how well known he was in the narutoverse o_o

[B0ukun]

1. you just underistimated Jiraya you fool o_o he was drugged o.o and oro had no arms it was not fair for either of them i say they are about even or one of them maybe stronger

2.bah i dunno how to comment but i still say Yondaime was most likly stronger than oro in my opinion he was most likely the strongest Shinobi with how well known he was in the narutoverse o_o

I remember reading a quote that illustrated that the 3rd believed that Jiraiya had already surpassed Oro. Also if you go on other peoples views, Itachi has stated that both he and Kisame would die in the killing of Jiraiya. So in his eyes, Jiraiya is a dead even match for the both of them combined.

As far as Yondiame being choosen over Oro, thats subject to debate. If you listen carefully to what he says to Kakashi during the Chunin exams then read the Kakashi Gaiden story, he obviously left before the 4th was chosen. Also he was chased out. I don't think there was a contention for the 4th before he left. They were just stating when it was mentioned that if it wasn't the 4th it would've been Oro. He expressly says to kakashi, "You didn't have that last time I saw you." Meaning the Sharingan. During kakashi Gaiden the 4th was namless super Jounin

[Collateral]

I dont think there is something confusing about oro vs 4th. It is obvoiusly that the 4th was stronger than him everytime they talk about the 4th they keep saying he was the strongest shinobi ever and they say only naruto can surpass him but he has the nine tails and with that everybody could suprass everyone else.

about the itachi vs oro vs Jiraiya thing we really cant answer that because oro said itachi is stronger and itachi said he cant beet Jirayia and i think the fight Jirayia (30%) vs oro (no arms but kibito did some jutsus for him) was a fair one and we saw they were even.

I think they are all on the same level and orochimaru overrates Itachi and Itachi overrates Jirayia

[partlink1]

heres my two cents on itachi vs. oro vs. jiraya

itachi is the most powerful

everyone forgets what he actualy said

he said,"i've used it too much today, if we faught to kill him we would die"

so winner itachi

and plus its been revealed that the sharingan can surpress the kyuubi chakra so that ends the four tails

[KageNaruto]

heres my two cents on itachi vs. oro vs. jiraya

itachi is the most powerful

everyone forgets what he actualy said

he said,"i've used it too much today, if we faught to kill him we would die"

so winner itachi

and plus its been revealed that the sharingan can surpress the kyuubi chakra so that ends the four tails

no, its been revealed that SASUKE can supress kyubi chakra while naruto is already keeping it back on his own.

[ryaneck]

I agree that Itachi didn't mean "Holy shit, no matter what we do, this guy Jiraiya will kick the shit out of both of us at the same time and then eat our hearts", but your silly 'not their own bodies' argument is moot. If those weren't their own bodies, then they would be expendable. Itachi was just showing restraint. He didn't need to fight right then when he was all worn out.

As far as the other argument about Jiraiya, you have to take into account that that was supposed to be analogous to Naruto trying to bring back Sasuke... they were both trying to *stop* their friends, or bring them back. They weren't fighting to kill. Beyond that, there's no reason to believe that Jiraiya hasn't gotten stronger more quickly than Orochimaru. If you're going to judge their strength, it's better to usethe more recent fight, which, as Collateral pointed out, seems to suggest that they are relatively level with one another. I think it's safe to assume that Kishimoto didn;t show a real 100% vs. 100% fight for a *reason*.. not just on a whim. It's *supposed* to be foreshadowing.


Lastly, just because it wasn't stated explicitly doesn't mean it isn't Beyond Obvious: Sasuke could obviously supress the chakra through use of the sharingan, and it is reasonable to assume that Itachi could do the same.

[ryaneck]

They (if by 'they' we are referring to Itachi and Kisame as fake bodies) wouldn't have