Does Mangekyou / Tsukuyomi require eye contact to work?

[NarutoNineTails]

I'm gonna "spare" everyone from the crap that's been going on between me and masa that was "unrelated" to the original thread of Hiashi vs Itachi. About time huh...^^

[NarutoNineTails]

I did present other cases and examples other than Guy's but Guy's explanation is the best one since it is directly coming from the anime. I don't want to bring up other examples I mentioned before when you don't have anything near what Guy said to support your theories.

You said it yourself, "you CAN look at someones feet and not at their eyes." Exactly. Peripheral vision will still catch Itachi's eyes but it still doesn't work. He can send laser beams from his eyes to his opponent's eyes staring at his feet and the fact still remains that Itachi can't induce mangekyou without eye contact.


looking at somebody's feet and not at their eyes includes peripherial vision, for example, i can look at someone through peripherial vision. you just disproved yourself once again...i think that was your last point, you say you had other points, but i dont recall any.

You r just too funny...you just repeated what I said and you tell me I disproved myself? You are the one disproving yourself. You are still not getting my point which is that you can see Itachi's eyes (using peripheral vision for example) as long as it isn't direct eye contact and you don't have to worry about falling under the influence of mangekyou.

By the way, I never said that Hyuuga don't have retinas. Go read my previous posts. Don't say I'm disproving myself by assuming things I said.

[NarutoNineTails]

and so what if itachi cant tell if he has made eye contact, he is still emitting chakra from his eyes and if it enters the other persons eyes mange will work.

The fact is you can see that person's eyes when staring at his feet thru peripheral vision. Try it yourself. Can you disprove this fact of life?

If what you say is true, Guy should not even open his eyes against Itachi. Did you see him closing his eyes at any point when facing Itachi? He even assures his comardes that it is ok to open their eyes and they do. Unless Guy falls under Mangekyou while focusing on Itachi's feet, we can safely assume that eye contact is a requirement. Your assumptions can not beat this. ^_^v

[Lukasz]

agree. Gai is very smart. He wouldnt do that if he wasnt sure of it.

[nawar]

eehm masa.... i think the anime already prooved you wrong, gai was looking at itachi the entire time, while he was doing the mange on kakashi, and while telling the others to open theyr eyes, if im not wrong, itachi was still doing his mange, he seemed to look a bit weired but still, somehow gai was sooooo confident, why didnt it work on gai....... maybe because he was right,

oh and, pheripihal or whatever vision was never mentioned in the anime, gai said there is a way to fight a person by focusing on his feet, you can predict theyr movements,

[NarutoNineTails]

Are you saying that in the Naruto anime world, there is no peripheral vision?

[nawar]

no.... im saying that in naruto anime world, gai knows a technique which allows him to know his opponants movements by the movements of his feet, simply body movement knowledge, i guees it should be common knowledge for every taijutsu master

[NarutoNineTails]

If the concept of pheripheral vision is the same between our world and the world of Naruto...then Guy, who is focusing on Itachi's feet at least 15 feet away, can see Itachi's eyes using peripheral vision.

Research brain and cognitive science. I know this since I have a psychology major. The eyes do catch the surroundings even when you focus on an object. The brain is capable of ignoring that information. Good example is your nose. Your eyes always capture it. Since it is always there the brain simply ignores it.

Again...Guy said focusing on Itachi's feet is sufficient in avoidng mangekyou, even when peripheral vision is catching Itachi's eyes.

[narutofanboy]

If the concept of pheripheral vision is the same between our world and the world of Naruto...then Guy, who is focusing on Itachi's feet at least 15 feet away, can see Itachi's eyes using peripheral vision.

Research brain and cognitive science. I know this since I have a psychology major. The eyes do catch the surroundings even when you focus on an object. The brain is capable of ignoring that information. Good example is your nose. Your eyes always capture it. Since it is always there the brain simply ignores it.

Again...Guy said focusing on Itachi's feet is sufficient in avoidng mangekyou, even when peripheral vision is catching Itachi's eyes.

I TOTALLy agree wit u... masa is dumb...

[NarutoNineTails]

I TOTALLy agree wit u... masa is dumb...

Thanks.

I wonder who the 3 that have voted "No" are. They don't seem to be too confident in their beliefs because they are not backing up their vote. I'm sure we'll hear from masa soon though...he is really stubborn.

[masa]

By the way, I never said that Hyuuga don't have retinas. Go read my previous posts. Don't say I'm disproving myself by assuming things I said.

I believe Byukagan user can only focus on one spot like anyone else (I'm not sure if they can focus beyond their normal vision), but they have 360% peripheral vision. I think this is the case because Byu users have NO retina. Retina is where a normal person can focus. Maybe they can't focus at all and just have 360% peripheral vision. Thus Byu user will face no handicap when fighting a Shar user.

so you never said that?

[masa]

I TOTALLy agree wit u... masa is dumb...

Thanks.

I wonder who the 3 that have voted "No" are. They don't seem to be too confident in their beliefs because they are not backing up their vote. I'm sure we'll hear from masa soon though...he is really stubborn.

you are the one that refuted the poll results in the other thread and then started this poll...which is basically the same thing (if mange doesnt need eye contact, sharingan is undoubtedly stronger than byakugan, if it does well...its still undecided). i think it is clear who the stubborn one is. you cannot accept the fact that hiashi is probably not all that strong, he may be at the level of an old decrepit hokage, but the legendary sannin and itachi are far beyond that.

[masa]

If the concept of pheripheral vision is the same between our world and the world of Naruto...then Guy, who is focusing on Itachi's feet at least 15 feet away, can see Itachi's eyes using peripheral vision.

Research brain and cognitive science. I know this since I have a psychology major. The eyes do catch the surroundings even when you focus on an object. The brain is capable of ignoring that information. Good example is your nose. Your eyes always capture it. Since it is always there the brain simply ignores it.

Again...Guy said focusing on Itachi's feet is sufficient in avoidng mangekyou, even when peripheral vision is catching Itachi's eyes.

you ASSUME guy's peripherial vision can see itachi's eyes, until you prove without a doubt that guy can see itachi's eyes through peripherial vision by looking at his feet you are WRONG.

[NarutoNineTails]

By the way, I never said that Hyuuga don't have retinas. Go read my previous posts. Don't say I'm disproving myself by assuming things I said.

I believe Byukagan user can only focus on one spot like anyone else (I'm not sure if they can focus beyond their normal vision), but they have 360% peripheral vision. I think this is the case because Byu users have NO retina. Retina is where a normal person can focus. Maybe they can't focus at all and just have 360% peripheral vision. Thus Byu user will face no handicap when fighting a Shar user.

so you never said that?

READ masa...there is the word "think" in that sentence. After further analysis, I came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter. Hyuuga can focus without retinas OR they have retinas but no one can see them. The point I was trying to make was that no one can tell if you have really made eye contact w/ a Hyuuga.

You try to manipulate my wording out of context so that you can try to make me look like an idiot. The fact is you try so hard but you look dummer trying.

[masa]

You r just too funny...you just repeated what I said and you tell me I disproved myself? You are the one disproving yourself. You are still not getting my point which is that you can see Itachi's eyes (using peripheral vision for example) as long as it isn't direct eye contact and you don't have to worry about falling under the influence of mangekyou.



You said it yourself, "you CAN look at someones feet and not at their eyes." Exactly. Peripheral vision will still catch Itachi's eyes but it still doesn't work. He can send laser beams from his eyes to his opponent's eyes staring at his feet and the fact still remains that Itachi can't induce mangekyou without eye contact.

okay so you AGREE to my statement of "you CAN look at someones feet and not at their eyes."

because looking INCLUDES peripherial vision you have just proved yourself wrong. i.e. looking at itachi's feet and not at his eyes woud include eliminating itachi's eyes from guys complete field of vision. therefore, by agreeing to my statement, you have just proved yourself wrong.

[masa]

By the way, I never said that Hyuuga don't have retinas. Go read my previous posts. Don't say I'm disproving myself by assuming things I said.

I believe Byukagan user can only focus on one spot like anyone else (I'm not sure if they can focus beyond their normal vision), but they have 360% peripheral vision. I think this is the case because Byu users have NO retina. Retina is where a normal person can focus. Maybe they can't focus at all and just have 360% peripheral vision. Thus Byu user will face no handicap when fighting a Shar user.

so you never said that?

READ masa...there is the word "think" in that sentence. After further analysis, I came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter. Hyuuga can focus without retinas OR they have retinas but no one can see them. The point I was trying to make was that no one can tell if you have really made eye contact w/ a Hyuuga.

You try to manipulate my wording out of context so that you can try to make me look like an idiot. The fact is you try so hard but you look dummer trying.

the "i think" does not change the fact that you said hyuugas do not have retinas. it was not out of context, it was quoted to mean exactly what you meant originally. just because you changed your mind later does not dispute this fact.

[NarutoNineTails]

I TOTALLy agree wit u... masa is dumb...

Thanks.

I wonder who the 3 that have voted "No" are. They don't seem to be too confident in their beliefs because they are not backing up their vote. I'm sure we'll hear from masa soon though...he is really stubborn.

you are the one that refuted the poll results in the other thread and then started this poll...which is basically the same thing (if mange doesnt need eye contact, sharingan is undoubtedly stronger than byakugan, if it does well...its still undecided). i think it is clear who the stubborn one is. you cannot accept the fact that hiashi is probably not all that strong, he may be at the level of an old decrepit hokage, but the legendary sannin and itachi are far beyond that.

Speculations and assumptions...that's all you got. Anyway, this thread isn't about Hiashi. You r such sore loser...read the thread title. You bring up issues that are unrelated to the thread so as too make me look bad?...nice try~ How is this thread the basically the same as "Hiashi vs Itachi"? LAME~

Undecided? Guy has the most experience against Sharingan than probably anyone. Unless guy is proven wrong, it is decided.

Also, you still have not come up w/ any good ways Itachi can take out Hiashi, in the threads that it was meant for. Gimme some logical ways it can be done in the proper thread...I'll be waiting.

[Aosagi]

What I dont understand is why you are even argueing this. Gai said it takes eye contact to work. How much more then that is needed? Gai's been fighting against the Sharingan for a long time, I would think he would know. I believe in the manga he fought with Itachi and even said it was best to look at their feet or use the reflection of the water to fight back.

This seems like such a pointless arguement. Its like arguing if the sky is blue.

[masa]

I TOTALLy agree wit u... masa is dumb...

Thanks.

I wonder who the 3 that have voted "No" are. They don't seem to be too confident in their beliefs because they are not backing up their vote. I'm sure we'll hear from masa soon though...he is really stubborn.

you are the one that refuted the poll results in the other thread and then started this poll...which is basically the same thing (if mange doesnt need eye contact, sharingan is undoubtedly stronger than byakugan, if it does well...its still undecided). i think it is clear who the stubborn one is. you cannot accept the fact that hiashi is probably not all that strong, he may be at the level of an old decrepit hokage, but the legendary sannin and itachi are far beyond that.

Speculations and assumptions...that's all you got. Anyway, this thread isn't about Hiashi. You r such sore loser...read the thread title. You bring up issues that are unrelated to the thread so as too make me look bad?...nice try~ How is this thread the basically the same as "Hiashi vs Itachi"? LAME~

have you ever proven anything in these few threads that i havent disproven or shown to be a matter of opinion? no.

this is the same because your only argument that could even remotely imply that mange wouldnt work on hiashi was solely based on the topic of this thread.



Undecided? Guy has the most experience against Sharingan than probably anyone. Unless guy is proven wrong, it is decided.

are you dyslexic? guy has nothing to do with byakugan or sharingan being stronger

Also, you still have not come up w/ any good ways Itachi can take out Hiashi, in the threads that it was meant for. Gimme some logical ways it can be done in the proper thread...I'll be waiting.

if i do it in the other thread it will just come back to the topic of this thread because this is your ONLY argument that can possibly be correct. but ill post it in the other topic.

[masa]

What I dont understand is why you are even argueing this. Gai said it takes eye contact to work. How much more then that is needed? Gai's been fighting against the Sharingan for a long time, I would think he would know. I believe in the manga he fought with Itachi and even said it was best to look at their feet or use the reflection of the water to fight back.

This seems like such a pointless arguement. Its like arguing if the sky is blue.

"Gai said it takes eye contact to work. "

he never said that.

[NarutoNineTails]

READ masa...there is the word "think" in that sentence. After further analysis, I came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter. Hyuuga can focus without retinas OR they have retinas but no one can see them. The point I was trying to make was that no one can tell if you have really made eye contact w/ a Hyuuga.

You try to manipulate my wording out of context so that you can try to make me look like an idiot. The fact is you try so hard but you look dummer trying.


the "i think" does not change the fact that you said hyuugas do not have retinas. it was not out of context, it was quoted to mean exactly what you meant originally. just because you changed your mind later does not dispute this fact.

The fact is we can't be sure if they have retinas or not since we can't see them. I thought that they might not have retinas but soon afterwards I said it doesn't matter. Why are you even bothering to bring up something that doesn't matter anymore? The fact still remains my points are still valid. Nice try again...masa.

[NarutoNineTails]

What I dont understand is why you are even argueing this. Gai said it takes eye contact to work. How much more then that is needed? Gai's been fighting against the Sharingan for a long time, I would think he would know. I believe in the manga he fought with Itachi and even said it was best to look at their feet or use the reflection of the water to fight back.

This seems like such a pointless arguement. Its like arguing if the sky is blue.

"Gai said it takes eye contact to work. "

he never said that.

How else can you interpret what Guy said? You still need to disprove what Guy said and you STILL can't do it...sore loser.

[masa]

What I dont understand is why you are even argueing this. Gai said it takes eye contact to work. How much more then that is needed? Gai's been fighting against the Sharingan for a long time, I would think he would know. I believe in the manga he fought with Itachi and even said it was best to look at their feet or use the reflection of the water to fight back.

This seems like such a pointless arguement. Its like arguing if the sky is blue.

"Gai said it takes eye contact to work. "

he never said that.

How else can you interpret what Guy said? You still need to disprove what Guy said and you STILL can't do it...sore loser.

i dont need to disprove what guy said because he never said it is okay to see mange through peripherial vision. YOU need to prove that he meant mange doesnt work on peripherial vision.

[masa]

the "i think" does not change the fact that you said hyuugas do not have retinas. it was not out of context, it was quoted to mean exactly what you meant originally. just because you changed your mind later does not dispute this fact.

The fact is we can't be sure if they have retinas or not since we can't see them. I thought that they might not have retinas but soon afterwards I said it doesn't matter. Why are you even bothering to bring up something that doesn't matter anymore? The fact still remains my points are still valid. Nice try again...masa.

you brought it up in this topic, i just responded to it. so why are YOU bothering to bring up something that doesnt even matter anymore? your points are not valid, i have proven every single one of them as either completely wrong (as with the no retinas case) or a matter of opinion and undeterminable from the given data (as with the peripherial vision case).


By the way, I never said that Hyuuga don't have retinas. Go read my previous posts. Don't say I'm disproving myself by assuming things I said.

[NarutoNineTails]

have you ever proven anything in these few threads that i havent disproven or shown to be a matter of opinion? no.

this is the same because your only argument that could even remotely imply that mange wouldnt work on hiashi was solely based on the topic of this thread.

I don't need to do crap anymore masa...you are the one who has to disprove what was said in the anime...:P

This thread was created since this SPECIFIC arguement was discussed constantly between JUST you and me. It was distracting people (like forum participant: ero-sennin) from the other aspects of Hiashi vs Itachi. Don't assume what I was thinking ass.

Undecided? Guy has the most experience against Sharingan than probably anyone. Unless guy is proven wrong, it is decided.


are you dyslexic? guy has nothing to do with byakugan or sharingan being stronger


I was referring to the topic at hand...eye contact requirement...I'm dyslexic?...lol


if i do it in the other thread it will just come back to the topic of this thread because this is your ONLY argument that can possibly be correct. but ill post it in the other topic.

I'll say it again...I'll be waiting for your assumptions.

[masa]

have you ever proven anything in these few threads that i havent disproven or shown to be a matter of opinion? no.

this is the same because your only argument that could even remotely imply that mange wouldnt work on hiashi was solely based on the topic of this thread.

I don't need to do crap anymore masa...you are the one who has to disprove what was said in the anime...:P

IT WAS NEVER SAID IN THE ANIME THAT MANGE DOESNT WORK ON PERIPHERIAL VISION. PERIOD. GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD.


Undecided? Guy has the most experience against Sharingan than probably anyone. Unless guy is proven wrong, it is decided.


I was referring to the topic at hand...eye contact requirement...I'm dyslexic?...lol

if you were then you took my quote COMPLETELY out of context.

edit; actually, you took the word undecided out of one part of my post and added it to another, hence, dyslexia.

[NarutoNineTails]

i dont need to disprove what guy said because he never said it is okay to see mange through peripherial vision. YOU need to prove that he meant mange doesnt work on peripherial vision.

It is official...you are dumb. I proved it already. What don't you understand? Guy was 15 feet away when he was staring at Itachi's feet. Peripheral vision WILL catch Itachi's eyes then. Guy said this method will prevent a person falling under mangekyou. HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO REPEAT THIS DUMBASS?

[masa]

i dont need to disprove what guy said because he never said it is okay to see mange through peripherial vision. YOU need to prove that he meant mange doesnt work on peripherial vision.

It is official...you are dumb. I proved it already. What don't you understand? Guy was 15 feet away when he was staring at Itachi's feet. Peripheral vision WILL catch Itachi's eyes then. Guy said this method will prevent a person falling under mangekyou. HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO REPEAT THIS DUMBASS?

that is not proof, that is your opinion. you must prove it, not give an opinion and assume it to be true. until then, we can take WORD FOR WORD what is said in the anime to be true.

[NarutoNineTails]

I guess you don't understand what peripheral vision is...go do research and prove me wrong...GOOD LUCK!

[NarutoNineTails]

The definition of peripheral vision is an opinion?...SURE~~

[Ero-Sennin]

I think it requires eye contact, for the illusion one at least. for the fire one i dont think so, because walls dont have eyes lol.

[masa]

I guess you don't understand what peripheral vision is...go do research and prove me wrong...GOOD LUCK!

see there is no need for me to prove you wrong because you havent proven yourself right. thats like me saying you are an idiot, prove me wrong. and you cant because it is my opinion.

[NarutoNineTails]

i dont need to disprove what guy said because he never said it is okay to see mange through peripherial vision. YOU need to prove that he meant mange doesnt work on peripherial vision.

It is official...you are dumb. I proved it already. What don't you understand? Guy was 15 feet away when he was staring at Itachi's feet. Peripheral vision WILL catch Itachi's eyes then. Guy said this method will prevent a person falling under mangekyou. HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO REPEAT THIS DUMBASS?

that is not proof, that is your opinion. you must prove it, not give an opinion and assume it to be true. until then, we can take WORD FOR WORD what is said in the anime to be true.

I guess for you peripheral vision means completely something else? If you believe peripheral vision isn't capturing Itachi's eye from 15 feet away when you are staring at his feet, then fine. I guess you have eyes that are different from everyone else.

[NarutoNineTails]

I guess you don't understand what peripheral vision is...go do research and prove me wrong...GOOD LUCK!

see there is no need for me to prove you wrong because you havent proven yourself right. thats like me saying you are an idiot, prove me wrong. and you cant because it is my opinion.

I need to prove how peripheral vision works? Why don't you just try it yourself? Isn't that proof enough????? SO DUMB!

[NarutoNineTails]

I really tried to be respectful to you masa but you are hopeless. I apolgize to anyone offended by my name calling but man...this masa is ridiculous.

[masa]

I guess for you peripheral vision means completely something else? If you believe peripheral vision isn't capturing Itachi's eye from 15 feet away when you are staring at his feet, then fine. I guess you have eyes that are different from everyone else.

peripherial vision isnt capturing itachi's eye from 15 feet away, it is the part visible at the edge of the field of vision. it can be distorted by focus, eye lids, direction the eye is facing, and a whole bunch of other stuff. there is no way you can make a correct statement about what guy can see and what he cant see from the data given by the anime.

[masa]

I really tried to be respectful to you masa but you are hopeless. I apolgize to anyone offended by my name calling but man...this masa is ridiculous.

you refer to name calling because you cant back up your own arguments.

and now you say i am hopeless because there is nowhere you can take your argument without being disproven.

[NarutoNineTails]

I guess for you peripheral vision means completely something else? If you believe peripheral vision isn't capturing Itachi's eye from 15 feet away when you are staring at his feet, then fine. I guess you have eyes that are different from everyone else.

peripherial vision isnt capturing itachi's eye from 15 feet away, it is the part visible at the edge of the field of vision. it can be distorted by focus, eye lids, direction the eye is facing, and a whole bunch of other stuff. there is no way you can make a correct statement about what guy can see and what he cant see from the data given by the anime.

"whole bunch of other stuff"...LOL

I gave you the nose example. The fact is brain is ignoring the information. The fact still remains that eyes do capture images from peripheral vision. Nice try again masa. Let see what else you can come up with.

[masa]

I guess you don't understand what peripheral vision is...go do research and prove me wrong...GOOD LUCK!

see there is no need for me to prove you wrong because you havent proven yourself right. thats like me saying you are an idiot, prove me wrong. and you cant because it is my opinion.

I need to prove how peripheral vision works? Why don't you just try it yourself? Isn't that proof enough????? SO DUMB!

fine, i tried it, focusing from 15 feet away, my field of vision was less than 4 feet in radius vertically. because itachi is taller than 4 feet we can safely say it is possible that gai too can look at itachi's feet and not at his eyes

[masa]

I guess for you peripheral vision means completely something else? If you believe peripheral vision isn't capturing Itachi's eye from 15 feet away when you are staring at his feet, then fine. I guess you have eyes that are different from everyone else.

peripherial vision isnt capturing itachi's eye from 15 feet away, it is the part visible at the edge of the field of vision. it can be distorted by focus, eye lids, direction the eye is facing, and a whole bunch of other stuff. there is no way you can make a correct statement about what guy can see and what he cant see from the data given by the anime.

"whole bunch of other stuff"...LOL

I gave you the nose example. The fact is brain is ignoring the information. The fact still remains that it does capture it. Nice try again masa. Let see what else you can come up with.

so your example is the brain blocks the nose, whats your point? seriously, maybe you should give reason to an example before you state it (or while you are stating it)

[NarutoNineTails]

I guess you don't understand what peripheral vision is...go do research and prove me wrong...GOOD LUCK!

see there is no need for me to prove you wrong because you havent proven yourself right. thats like me saying you are an idiot, prove me wrong. and you cant because it is my opinion.

I need to prove how peripheral vision works? Why don't you just try it yourself? Isn't that proof enough????? SO DUMB!

fine, i tried it, focusing from 15 feet away, my field of vision was less than 4 feet in radius vertically. because itachi is taller than 4 feet we can safely say it is possible that gai too can look at itachi's feet and not at his eyes

LOL...you are trying so hard not to admit that you are dumb that your brain is ignoring it. This is by far the funniest of your posts. Do you want me start a thread that reads...'Can you see someone's eyes using peripheral vision from at least 15 feet away?'...actually...you make it since you are so confident that "field of vision was less than 4 feet in radius vertically."

[masa]

I guess you don't understand what peripheral vision is...go do research and prove me wrong...GOOD LUCK!

see there is no need for me to prove you wrong because you havent proven yourself right. thats like me saying you are an idiot, prove me wrong. and you cant because it is my opinion.

I need to prove how peripheral vision works? Why don't you just try it yourself? Isn't that proof enough????? SO DUMB!

fine, i tried it, focusing from 15 feet away, my field of vision was less than 4 feet in radius vertically. because itachi is taller than 4 feet we can safely say it is possible that gai too can look at itachi's feet and not at his eyes

LOL...you are trying so hard not to admit that you are dumb that your brain is ignoring it. This is by far the funniest of your posts. Do you want me start a thread that reads...'Can you see someone's eyes using peripheral vision from at least 15 feet away?'...actually...you make it since you are so confident that "field of vision was less than 4 feet in radius vertically."

actually it had a lot to do with my eyelids blocking it. i can make my field of vision as small as 1 foot or less (whilst still being open) from 15 feet with my eyelids blocking it. with 4 feet i took into consideration guy was not squinting (i was not squinting during the original test).

edit: yes you can see someones eyes from 15 feet away while looking at their feet, but not if you are trying not to.

[NarutoNineTails]

I guess you don't understand what peripheral vision is...go do research and prove me wrong...GOOD LUCK!

see there is no need for me to prove you wrong because you havent proven yourself right. thats like me saying you are an idiot, prove me wrong. and you cant because it is my opinion.

I need to prove how peripheral vision works? Why don't you just try it yourself? Isn't that proof enough????? SO DUMB!

fine, i tried it, focusing from 15 feet away, my field of vision was less than 4 feet in radius vertically. because itachi is taller than 4 feet we can safely say it is possible that gai too can look at itachi's feet and not at his eyes

LOL...you are trying so hard not to admit that you are dumb that your brain is ignoring it. This is by far the funniest of your posts. Do you want me start a thread that reads...'Can you see someone's eyes using peripheral vision from at least 15 feet away?'...actually...you make it since you are so confident that "field of vision was less than 4 feet in radius vertically."

actually it had a lot to do with my eyelids blocking it. i can make my field of vision as small as 1 foot or less (whilst still being open) from 15 feet with my eyelids blocking it. with 4 feet i took into consideration guy was not squinting (i was not squinting during the original test).

edit: yes you can see someones eyes from 15 feet away while looking at their feet, but not if you are trying not to.

Getting better and better. Your are imaginative...I'll give you that but damn...so funny.

At some point, if you have your eyes open, peripheral vision will capture Itachi's eyes.

http://www.health.state.ok.us/PROGRAM/injury/factsheets/motorcycle_injuries.htm

"Q. Do helmets obstruct peripheral vision?

A. Helmets do not obstruct critical vision. The peripheral vision of normal human eyes range between 200–220° in width. The Department of Transportation standard requires helmets provide a visual field range of 210° in width. A University of Southern California (USC) study showed 90% of all motorcycles in crashes hit something that was within 60° of straight ahead or within a range of 120°."

Let's see how you try to disprove this...

I'm hoping it is better than the last one because I might die laughing and you won't have to make a fool out of yourself anymore.

[masa]

Getting better and better. Your are imaginative...I'll give you that but damn...so funny.

At some point, if you have your eyes open, peripheral vision will capture Itachi's eyes.

http://www.health.state.ok.us/PROGRAM/injury/factsheets/motorcycle_injuries.htm

"Q. Do helmets obstruct peripheral vision?

A. Helmets do not obstruct critical vision. The peripheral vision of normal human eyes range between 200–220° in width. The Department of Transportation standard requires helmets provide a visual field range of 210° in width. A University of Southern California (USC) study showed 90% of all motorcycles in crashes hit something that was within 60° of straight ahead or within a range of 120°."

Let's see how you try to disprove this...

I'm hoping it is better than the last one because I might die laughing and you won't have to make a fool out of yourself anymore.

you should notice that the article is talking about width, to see itachi's eyes you would need degrees vertically.

edit; and looking down, the majority of the field of vision is skewed towards below the point of focus (feet) rather than above.

[NarutoNineTails]

Getting better and better. Your are imaginative...I'll give you that but damn...so funny.

At some point, if you have your eyes open, peripheral vision will capture Itachi's eyes.

http://www.health.state.ok.us/PROGRAM/injury/factsheets/motorcycle_injuries.htm

"Q. Do helmets obstruct peripheral vision?

A. Helmets do not obstruct critical vision. The peripheral vision of normal human eyes range between 200–220° in width. The Department of Transportation standard requires helmets provide a visual field range of 210° in width. A University of Southern California (USC) study showed 90% of all motorcycles in crashes hit something that was within 60° of straight ahead or within a range of 120°."

Let's see how you try to disprove this...

I'm hoping it is better than the last one because I might die laughing and you won't have to make a fool out of yourself anymore.

you should notice that the article is talking about width, to see itachi's eyes you would need degrees vertically.

edit; and looking down, the majority of the field of vision is skewed towards below the point of focus (feet) rather than above.

True...peripheral range vertically is less than width but the range from one's feet to one's eyes from 15 feet is how many degrees?

If Mangekyou worked on peripheral vision, Guy would have never mentioned it to his comrades when their life is on the line. End of story.

[NarutoNineTails]

Earlier you were giving me crap about changing my mind. How funny...I am noticing the amount of your edits today. It seems like lot more than me... ^_^v

[masa]

Earlier you were giving me crap about changing my mind. How funny...I am noticing the amount of your edits today. It seems like lot more than me... ^_^v

i left my original messages intact, i was not taking back what i said, i simply added more as opposed to making another post with an after thought.

[masa]

True...peripheral range vertically is less than width but the range from one's feet to one's eyes from 15 feet is how many degrees?

i think it would be a little less than 30 degrees, not exactly sure, too lazy to bust out a calculator.

If Mangekyou worked on peripheral vision, Guy would have never mentioned it to his comrades when their life is on the line. End of story.

and you are pestering me about assumptions? geez.

[NarutoNineTails]

Earlier you were giving me crap about changing my mind. How funny...I am noticing the amount of your edits today. It seems like lot more than me... ^_^v

i left my original messages intact, i was not taking back what i said, i simply added more as opposed to making another post with an after thought.

I'm gonna repeat what you said..."just because you changed your mind later does not dispute" the fact that you were wrong. How do you like the taste of your own medicine?

Also, I am neither wrong nor right about the retinas. Please try proving that they have retinas. Can you be positive? I didn't thinks so.

[NarutoNineTails]

True...peripheral range vertically is less than width but the range from one's feet to one's eyes from 15 feet is how many degrees?

i think it would be a little less than 30 degrees, not exactly sure, too lazy to bust out a calculator.

If Mangekyou worked on peripheral vision, Guy would have never mentioned it to his comrades when their life is on the line. End of story.

and you are pestering me about assumptions? geez.

I really hope verical range of peripheral vision is less than 30 degrees. If not I gave you proof.

[NarutoNineTails]

By the way, did you see Guy trying to limit his peripheral vision by squinting or any other method? Do you remember hearing Guy mentioning anything about limiting peripheral vision? Your latest theory is again...very weak.

[masa]

By the way, did you see Guy trying to limit his peripheral vision by squinting or any other method? Do you remember hearing Guy mentioning anything about limiting peripheral vision? Your latest theory is again...very weak.

did i not say that i didnt have to squint to limit my vision to 4 feet radius? it is mostly because the eyelid covers part of the pupil when looking normally and if you try to focus, it covers even more

[NarutoNineTails]

Where are your supporters? You have probably 2 Itachi lovers that voted "No" and that is it. Not one person has replied yet that is supporting you. ^_^v

[masa]

True...peripheral range vertically is less than width but the range from one's feet to one's eyes from 15 feet is how many degrees?

i think it would be a little less than 30 degrees, not exactly sure, too lazy to bust out a calculator.

If Mangekyou worked on peripheral vision, Guy would have never mentioned it to his comrades when their life is on the line. End of story.

and you are pestering me about assumptions? geez.

I really hope verical range of peripheral vision is less than 30 degrees. If not I gave you proof.

i think it depends on mostly the shape/size of the person's eyes/eyelids.

[masa]

Where are your supporters? You have probably 2 Itachi lovers that voted "No" and that is it. Not one person has replied yet that is supporting you. ^_^v

do i need supporters to be right? no.

[Lixie]

Wow, this is quite a long thread for a question that can be answered so easily. I didn't bother reading through any of this stuff btw.

Yes, these jutsus need eye contact to work. As Gai said, as long as you don't look directly at Itachi's eyes, his jutsu will not work.

[NarutoNineTails]

By the way, did you see Guy trying to limit his peripheral vision by squinting or any other method? Do you remember hearing Guy mentioning anything about limiting peripheral vision? Your latest theory is again...very weak.

did i not say that i didnt have to squint to limit my vision to 4 feet radius? it is mostly because the eyelid covers part of the pupil when looking normally and if you try to focus, it covers even more

This will limit verical peripheral vision to less than 4 feet radius? One tiny mishap w/ the eye lids I guess is game over for Itachi's opponents?...LOL

You really think with such small margin of error, Guy would be recommending such a method to his comarades when their life is on the line? You got to be kidding?

I will look for human's actual verical peripheral range since you are retarded stubborn.

[NarutoNineTails]

Not the best source but makes sense and way more than 30 degrees. Eat your heart out masa.

http://www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/jan97/lowresv.html

"Wanting a little more peripheral vision, I arranged a pattern such that the field of view is wider than it is higher. This is the same geometry that your eyes have, where you can see about 180 degrees horizontally, but only about 100 degrees vertically."

Proof enough for you? Lets see if you can actually back up yours points like mine...sore loser.

[NarutoNineTails]

Where are your supporters? You have probably 2 Itachi lovers that voted "No" and that is it. Not one person has replied yet that is supporting you. ^_^v

do i need supporters to be right? no.

Well you are either a super genious or super stupid.

[nawar]

Wow, this is quite a long thread for a question that can be answered so easily. I didn't bother reading through any of this stuff btw.

Yes, these jutsus need eye contact to work. As Gai said, as long as you don't look directly at Itachi's eyes, his jutsu will not work.

ah finaly someone that isnt trying to make naruto real life, its as said in the manga, who cares if it was pheripal or bladie bla vision, that kind of stuff wasnt mentioned,

[Fungus]

i think masa and NarutoNineTails should finish this fight in the parking lot.

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!!!!

[NarutoNineTails]

i think masa and NarutoNineTails should finish this fight in the parking lot.

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!!!!

I don't think a fight at the parking lot is necessary. I believe the fight is finally over...^_^v

[masa]

Not the best source but makes sense and way more than 30 degrees. Eat your heart out masa.

http://www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/jan97/lowresv.html

"Wanting a little more peripheral vision, I arranged a pattern such that the field of view is wider than it is higher. This is the same geometry that your eyes have, where you can see about 180 degrees horizontally, but only about 100 degrees vertically."

Proof enough for you? Lets see if you can actually back up yours points like mine...sore loser.

yes, 100 degrees vertically, but that is including the bottom range, and vertically, our vision is skewed down. the 30 degrees i calculated was only a quick thought off the top of my head, and it only accounts for the point of focus and above. the 100 degrees counts from the highest possible point to the lowest.

edit; i would also like to note that the 100 degrees was most likely counted with the eyes completely open to keep it constant, normally, your eyelids cover a lot of vision.

[masa]

Wow, this is quite a long thread for a question that can be answered so easily. I didn't bother reading through any of this stuff btw.

Yes, these jutsus need eye contact to work. As Gai said, as long as you don't look directly at Itachi's eyes, his jutsu will not work.

ah finaly someone that isnt trying to make naruto real life, its as said in the manga, who cares if it was pheripal or bladie bla vision, that kind of stuff wasnt mentioned,

see nnt? it wasnt mentioned.

[masa]

By the way, did you see Guy trying to limit his peripheral vision by squinting or any other method? Do you remember hearing Guy mentioning anything about limiting peripheral vision? Your latest theory is again...very weak.

did i not say that i didnt have to squint to limit my vision to 4 feet radius? it is mostly because the eyelid covers part of the pupil when looking normally and if you try to focus, it covers even more

This will limit verical peripheral vision to less than 4 feet radius? One tiny mishap w/ the eye lids I guess is game over for Itachi's opponents?...LOL

You really think with such small margin of error, Guy would be recommending such a method to his comarades when their life is on the line? You got to be kidding?

I will look for human's actual verical peripheral range since you are retarded stubborn.
well considering most people dont open their eyelids to the maximum unexpectedley.

[NarutoNineTails]

Wow, this is quite a long thread for a question that can be answered so easily. I didn't bother reading through any of this stuff btw.

Yes, these jutsus need eye contact to work. As Gai said, as long as you don't look directly at Itachi's eyes, his jutsu will not work.

ah finaly someone that isnt trying to make naruto real life, its as said in the manga, who cares if it was pheripal or bladie bla vision, that kind of stuff wasnt mentioned,

see nnt? it wasnt mentioned.

You keep missing the point. Mangekyou requries eye contact. What don't you get?

[NarutoNineTails]

Not the best source but makes sense and way more than 30 degrees. Eat your heart out masa.

http://www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/jan97/lowresv.html

"Wanting a little more peripheral vision, I arranged a pattern such that the field of view is wider than it is higher. This is the same geometry that your eyes have, where you can see about 180 degrees horizontally, but only about 100 degrees vertically."

Proof enough for you? Lets see if you can actually back up yours points like mine...sore loser.

yes, 100 degrees vertically, but that is including the bottom range, and vertically, our vision is skewed down. the 30 degrees i calculated was only a quick thought off the top of my head, and it only accounts for the point of focus and above. the 100 degrees counts from the highest possible point to the lowest.

edit; i would also like to note that the 100 degrees was most likely counted with the eyes completely open to keep it constant, normally, your eyelids cover a lot of vision.

You try so hard to keep you belief alive but your reasoning is not being supported by anyone. You believe what you want. At the very least you can't assume that Mangekyou works without eye contact.

[masa]

Not the best source but makes sense and way more than 30 degrees. Eat your heart out masa.

http://www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/jan97/lowresv.html

"Wanting a little more peripheral vision, I arranged a pattern such that the field of view is wider than it is higher. This is the same geometry that your eyes have, where you can see about 180 degrees horizontally, but only about 100 degrees vertically."

Proof enough for you? Lets see if you can actually back up yours points like mine...sore loser.

yes, 100 degrees vertically, but that is including the bottom range, and vertically, our vision is skewed down. the 30 degrees i calculated was only a quick thought off the top of my head, and it only accounts for the point of focus and above. the 100 degrees counts from the highest possible point to the lowest.

edit; i would also like to note that the 100 degrees was most likely counted with the eyes completely open to keep it constant, normally, your eyelids cover a lot of vision.

You try so hard to keep you belief alive but your reasoning is not being supported by anyone. You believe what you want. At the very least you can't assume that Mangekyou works without eye contact.

actually that is exactly what we have to assume because it has not been proven that it doesnt work without eye contact and there has been no mention in the anime of eye contact or peripherial vision.

[masa]

Wow, this is quite a long thread for a question that can be answered so easily. I didn't bother reading through any of this stuff btw.

Yes, these jutsus need eye contact to work. As Gai said, as long as you don't look directly at Itachi's eyes, his jutsu will not work.

ah finaly someone that isnt trying to make naruto real life, its as said in the manga, who cares if it was pheripal or bladie bla vision, that kind of stuff wasnt mentioned,

see nnt? it wasnt mentioned.

You keep missing the point. Mangekyou requries eye contact. What don't you get?

it does not require eye contact, it has not been said in the anime that it does, and it has not been proven by you that it does. what dont you get?

[nawar]

actualy it was said in the anime, leterarly that the sharingan NEEDS EYE CONTACT, in the beginning of the show it was already explained how sharingan works,

it uses a hypnotising jutsu, and hypnotising REQUIRES EYE CONTACT, mange is the true power of the hypno power and that too tequires eye contact

[NarutoNineTails]

Masa you keep saying that you know better than Guy! Go ahead and make a complete fool out of yourself.

[NarutoNineTails]

Staring at itachi's feet = NO EYE CONTACT

[NarutoNineTails]

Fact:

Peripheral vision catches Itachi's eyes when staring at his feet.

[NarutoNineTails]

Guy said you can fight this way without being induced by Mangekyou.

[NarutoNineTails]

What can you disprove here? Nothing

[NarutoNineTails]

I just rewatched episode 82. This is what Guy said using Anbu_AOne sub:

"When you fight a Sharingan user, you just don't have to look into their eyes. Keep your eyes on their feet, predict their movement, and counter accordingly."

We know for SURE that eye contact is required for Mangekyou to work now.

Guy was also at least 25 feet away from Itachi. Even from my initial 15 feet guess, one can see Itachi's eyes using peripheral vision. I wonder what you will say now that it is at least 25 feet away.

[nawar]

uuhm.... just stop it with that damn pheripeal vision, i dont care, it a simple human aspect of the eye, nothing in naruto is normal, people can stand on water, pheripeal vision is probably not something they even care about

[NarutoNineTails]

If you don't care...that's fine but it was not meant for you. If you don't want to read it then don't...simple as that.

You also agree that it is a simple human aspect of the eye. The problem is that masa does not want to accept this fact.

[narutofanboy]

good job NNT.... you kept the argument alive and taht other guy is stupid ahhahah

[NarutoNineTails]

good job NNT.... you kept the argument alive and taht other guy is stupid ahhahah

Fact:

masa = stupid

:lol:

I've been away during memorial weekend and masa the stupid didn't reply yet!? Can this be true? Did he finally realize how stupid he and his arguments are?

I doubt he is that smart though. He will be back and I'll be here to make him look dummer. ^_^v

[Hiyo]

Agreed! You need direct eye contact!

[KageNaruto]

wow, old thread right?

anyway yeah i didnt read everything(anything), so my thought.

yes you need eye contact to cast dojutsu like that. itachi uses vision based gengitsu, so if you dont look at it, you wont be affected.

i dont even get the point of this thread, i thought it was kind of common sense.....

[imported_Greenlitflag]

Question: Would a Hyuuga want to disable byakugan when fighting Itachi? With 359 vision it would almost be impossible to avoid his eyes. Which brings up another question (this may have been answered/asked) would mangekyo work if you saw it a reflection?

[RandomGuy]

I read the first 2 pages and I have some things to say.

First, Zabuza said that it requires eye contact to work, and after the fights of Kakashi vs Zabuza, its pretty much proven that genjutsu via Sharingan requires eye contact. Second, Gai said to "just dont look at his eyes", meaning it requires eye contact to work. How much more clear do you have to make it?

Also, masa, youre arguing with just plain WORDING so much that youre losing focus of what the whole arguments all about. "Looking includes peripheral vision"....uhhhh, if someone says "LOOK AT ME WHEN IM TALKING TO YOU", can you continue to look over his/her shoulder and say "Duhhh I amm cuz i c u thru my periferull vizhun"? Next...."Gai never said it takes eye contact to work". Ok if you wanna play that game, Hinata is stronger than Itachi. Prove that shes not plz. No one ever says it in the anime. We haven't seen them fight. Hinata is so stronger than Itachi! .....uh, no right?

I could continue, but I dont wanna play the word game because its plain retarded. Lets stick to common sense and stop the English lesson.

[Hiyo]

Question: Would a Hyuuga want to disable byakugan when fighting Itachi? With 359 vision it would almost be impossible to avoid his eyes. Which brings up another question (this may have been answered/asked) would mangekyo work if you saw it a reflection?

Well, Hyuuga vision isn't really using normal light is it? I'd be more like using x-ray or something. A different frenquency of light able to travel through stuff. So unless byakugan covers a huge range of frenquencies of light you'd think that a hyuuga used might be able to avoid it all together.


ps: I guess I was work. People always say "search for stuff instead of posting new threads" so I decided to bring up a thread that hasn't been posted in in the last 28 MONTHS haha. No one bitched and people are posting again. Guess that blows away that theory.

[jounin101]

did itachi make eye contact with the guard at konoha's gates when itachi and kisame first went into konoha. his hat was covering most of his face, so i dont think so.

[NarutoNineTails]

Jounin101,
was that tsukuyomi...i don't think so. ;)

Edit:
who resurrected this beast? lol.

One of my first threads I created at chaos...haha. Obviously, it isn't a good example to use for enforcing the no flamming or double posting rule in Chaos. ;)

I was almost banned for multiple postings...haha...back in the days when Naruto was all the rage.

Edit2:
RandomGuy,

masa never came back to chaos after his last post in this thread...lol ;)


Question: Would a Hyuuga want to disable byakugan when fighting Itachi? With 359 vision it would almost be impossible to avoid his eyes. Which brings up another question (this may have been answered/asked) would mangekyo work if you saw it a reflection?

Hyuuga don't see the same way that normal eyes do so imo no. My evidence to support this comes from the fight between Neji and Naruto. The anime clearly shows us what Neji was seeing from his perspective. If you look at that scene closely, all Neji's sees are 2 black dots representing Naruto's eyes for all his bunshins. Would a hyuuga fall under tsukuyomi using that mode of viewing...I don't think so. Also I don't think Byakugan allows for focusing on all angles at once. What Byakugan allows is 359 peripheral vision imo instead of the normal 100 something degrees that is usually allowed by the human eyes. Hyuuga imo can only focus at one point just like everyone else. This is supported by the anime too imo. The scene when Neji practices his byakugan in the woods. He misses one bird during that exercise but when he is searching behind him...it shows how his focus (camera angle) keeps shifting from one bird to another (if I remember it correctly). Thus at the very least, Hyuuga can utilize the focusing on the feet strategy against a mangekyou user and face no handicap that is usually associated with this strategy for a normal shinobis. Hyuuga's just match up really well against Sharingan. This has always been my argument from the begining of the series.

[DonEmu]

did itachi make eye contact with the guard at konoha's gates when itachi and kisame first went into konoha. his hat was covering most of his face, so i dont think so.

he did make eye contact, the show him raising his head slightly...then the guard falling over, they dont show the complete scene cause it would give away too much too early..

[RandomGuy]

Edit2:
RandomGuy,

masa never came back to chaos after his last post in this thread...lol ;)


Good lol. I woulda hated having to have the word game with him. "wtf dont put words in my mouth, I didn't say that!! I spelled Gai with a 'y', not an 'i'..." Yeesh no wonder everyone in this thread was against him.

[KageNaruto]

did itachi make eye contact with the guard at konoha's gates when itachi and kisame first went into konoha. his hat was covering most of his face, so i dont think so.

he did make eye contact, the show him raising his head slightly...then the guard falling over, they dont show the complete scene cause it would give away too much too early..

Itachi basically used a normal eye gengitsu that them, not MS. I doubt hed need MS on gaurds.

But yeah it was very subliminal

[.Sage.]

I agree with the people talking about the events involving Itachi Gai and Kakashi... They had no eye contact so they were not affected by the sharingan.....

[Raki]

but itachi can also use his finger as an genjutsu too so you cant really dodge most of itachi's attacks unless you really look at his feet and not at his finger and eye.

[NarutoNineTails]

read the forum rules...this is the anime section...don't mention stuff from the manga that's ahead of the anime in almost ANY way.

[Hollister]

agree. Gai is very smart. He wouldnt do that if he wasnt sure of it.itachi can find other ways to make it work without eye contact

[Davis]

yes, kurenai gai and asuma didnt get it cause thier eyes were closed.

[DonEmu]

why does itachi need to make it work...do u really think sharingan is the only thing he is good for...

[Devil~]

From what i know, It does need eye contact, But with itachi, You close your eyes and you die.

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

kakashi told everyone not to look into his eyes.one reaosn was because he could hynotise them and catch them in a genjutsus and kakahsi already realized that itachi was better than him.kakashi tought he was safe becaus ehe had a Sharingan too but he wasn't.all itachi needs to do is just catch a glimpse of eye contact and he has you.the genjutsus accurs in only 1 sec in real time.so yes he needs eye contact.if anyone disagree's plz show me some proof that he doesn't

[KageNaruto]

kakashi told everyone not to look into his eyes.one reaosn was because he could hynotise them and catch them in a genjutsus and kakahsi already realized that itachi was better than him.kakashi tought he was safe becaus ehe had a Sharingan too but he wasn't.all itachi needs to do is just catch a glimpse of eye contact and he has you.the genjutsus accurs in only 1 sec in real time.so yes he needs eye contact.if anyone disagree's plz show me some proof that he doesn't

actually im pretty sure it was said 3 seconds that mangekyu took place, not one (as if in the illusion is 3 secs real time)

[Devil~]

Still, You die if your in or out the genjutsu, The only way to beat him would be listening, Or another sharigan user. Or something to hurt yourself inside the genjutsu so he cant kill you in there. Only ways i know.

[zoldic777]

It does require eye contact,and closing ur eyes is really stupid,YOU CAN GET KILLED,looking at the feet is quite risky,u just can't.....so i really think falling into itachis genjutsu is like dying before dying O_o get what i mean,Consider urself dead before u even die o_O

[DonEmu]

Still, You die if your in or out the genjutsu, The only way to beat him would be listening, Or another sharigan user. Or something to hurt yourself inside the genjutsu so he cant kill you in there. Only ways i know.

touch cant break the MS genjutsu, and only someone with the MS is immune to it, thats why he first thought only sasuke could beat him cause he considers sasuke the only person capable of gettin MS...

[Hiyo]

I don't believe the time it takes to cast the genjutsu nor who it affects and how you get outta it were ever mentioned. All that Itachi mentions is how you can spend days in the jutsu while only seconds pass in reality.

For all we know it could take a millisecond to capture them or a few seconds during a fight.

We don't even know how difficult it is to break out of.. although you can assume it must be pretty difficult since Kakashi was unable to.

[DonEmu]

it is said that only a similar sharingan can beat the MS, so in order to beat MS u must have MS...Itachi mentioned this(not exactly in these words) right be4 he used it against kakashi...

[Hiyo]

it is said that only a similar sharingan can beat the MS, so in order to beat MS u must have MS...Itachi mentioned this(not exactly in these words) right be4 he used it against kakashi...

He was referring to Tsukuyomi in that even with sharingan you can't avoid it.. you need MS to avoid it. That doesn't say anything about getting out of it. Just because he hasn't experienced anyone getting outta it aside from possibilty another MS user doesn't mean it's not possible :P

You aren't supposed to be able to fight once a Hyuuga cuts off all your chakra points but Naruto was able to get around that. So there are obviously going to be ways to get around Tsukuyomi once you are in it. Otherwise I guess Sasuke is going to get MS and kill Itachi since that'd be the only possible way for Naruto to be saved from the Akatsuki since he is the main character of the show. :P

[DonEmu]

it is said that only a similar sharingan can beat the MS, so in order to beat MS u must have MS...Itachi mentioned this(not exactly in these words) right be4 he used it against kakashi...

He was referring to Tsukuyomi in that even with sharingan you can't avoid it.. you need MS to avoid it. That doesn't say anything about getting out of it. Just because he hasn't experienced anyone getting outta it aside from possibilty another MS user doesn't mean it's not possible :P

You aren't supposed to be able to fight once a Hyuuga cuts off all your chakra points but Naruto was able to get around that. So there are obviously going to be ways to get around Tsukuyomi once you are in it. Otherwise I guess Sasuke is going to get MS and kill Itachi since that'd be the only possible way for Naruto to be saved from the Akatsuki since he is the main character of the show. :P

it is always possible for there to be a loophole in the ms thing, with the neji hitting naruto tenketsu, it did do exactly what it was meant to do, it cut of narutos chakra, if naruto had fought with his own chakra then u could use that as an example but he used the ninetails chakra...and about ways to beat tsukuyomi, there may be many, it might not work on everyone, and remember when gai said they should fight by looking at his feet, and asuma said that was hard, gai's reply was there are other ways to fight but this is not the time...also he didnt use it on jiraiya though they met eye-to-eye which i am assuming it doesnt work on jiraiya...my point is, the clearest way to fight him is to have MS....

[NarutoNineTails]

yeah curious as to why Itachi didn't use Tsukuyomi against Jiraiya...he ended up using Amateratsu anyways which would probably as debilitating as Tsukuyomi imo.

[Hiyo]

yeah curious as to why Itachi didn't use Tsukuyomi against Jiraiya...he ended up using Amateratsu anyways which would probably as debilitating as Tsukuyomi imo.

Maybe he felt he didn't have the chakra to waste doing either? Using Amateratsu was pretty much forced on him since they were trapped.

[imported_Aizen-diacho]

after kakashi got out of the jutsus i remember him saying that only a second has passed and he was all astonished and stuff.

[KageNaruto]

yeah curious as to why Itachi didn't use Tsukuyomi against Jiraiya...he ended up using Amateratsu anyways which would probably as debilitating as Tsukuyomi imo.

because jiraiya isnt some weak inexperienced ninja(not saying kakashi was), and itachi knows that he wont succeed, and even if they do its waaay to risky.

a predator backs off hunting prey when it knows theres a chance of injury if it tries to get the prey, even if its remote. (im talking about the animal world here)

it was the smart thing to do

[NarutoNineTails]

because jiraiya isnt some weak inexperienced ninja(not saying kakashi was), and itachi knows that he wont succeed, and even if they do its waaay to risky.

a predator backs off hunting prey when it knows theres a chance of injury if it tries to get the prey, even if its remote. (im talking about the animal world here)

it was the smart thing to do

Itachi knows that it won't succeed? Where did u get that from? Why wouldn't Tsukuyomi be effective against Jiraiya? Itachi could have accomplished his mission then and even have a good chance of killing a very formidable foe with Tsukuyomi then. Hiyo's explanation is much more plausible to me.

[KageNaruto]

because jiraiya isnt some weak inexperienced ninja(not saying kakashi was), and itachi knows that he wont succeed, and even if they do its waaay to risky.

a predator backs off hunting prey when it knows theres a chance of injury if it tries to get the prey, even if its remote. (im talking about the animal world here)

it was the smart thing to do

Itachi knows that it won't succeed? Where did u get that from? Why wouldn't Tsukuyomi be effective against Jiraiya? Itachi could have accomplished his mission then and even have a good chance of killing a very formidable foe with Tsukuyomi then. Hiyo's explanation is much more plausible to me.

wont succeed as if in beating(killing) jiraiya if they choose to fight. sorry for that lack of clarification

and MS does not equal answer to everything, i doubt there would be a move that just beats anyone

[NarutoNineTails]

I never said Tsukuyomi is unstoppable. Why do you think I created this thread...it was because of those ppl that thought Itachi is God due to mangekyou. Still, I don't think Jiraiya was fully aware of Tsukuyomi then so he was vulnerable.

[Aizen-diacho]

No one knows about Tsukuyomi besides sasuke and kakashi.

[Hiyo]

No one knows about Tsukuyomi besides sasuke and kakashi.

I highly doubt that. The Uchiha has a history... there clan may current hide the secrets of MS but i'm sure in the past many people knew about MS. That's why they were "feared as the greatest clan" or whatever has been said about them.

I'm sure older ninjas know full well the potential of the Uchiha clan. (ie: sannins, hokages,etc.)

[KageNaruto]

No one knows about Tsukuyomi besides sasuke and kakashi.

jiraiya knows about amaterasu. and i really doubt that kakashi WOULDNT tell jiraiya about the illusion version of MS since they seem to share info quite a lot. asuma and kurenai know about it too, as well as gai, im sure kakashi explained it to them further then what they saw.

[Hiyo]

Better question: why would you assume Kakashi knows? Just cause he has sharingan? Kakashi doesn't have MS in the anime so unless it's a secret it'd be his first time experiencing any of the jutsus from it when he fought with Itachi. Sasuke might know about them cause of reading the information in the dojo or whatever in the clans village after they were wiped out.

[NarutoNineTails]

Kakashi probably knew due to his sharingan that Itachi was about to use a sharingan based genjutsu attack...I highly doubt that he knew about Tsukuyomi...especially since he thought he would be immune to genjutsus due to his sharingan.

As I recall Jiraiya and Naruto left the village prior to the battle between Itachi and Kakashi in konoha so the likelihood of Jiraiya knowing about Tsukuyomi is not that high unless he knew about it from way back when Uchiha clan was still intact. In addition Jiraiya was surprised by the escape of Itachi inside his frog esophogus jutsu using Amateratsu. It looked like he sealed the black flames of amateratsu to observe what exactly it is later imo.

[Aizen-diacho]

Better question: why would you assume Kakashi knows? Just cause he has sharingan? Kakashi doesn't have MS in the anime so unless it's a secret it'd be his first time experiencing any of the jutsus from it when he fought with Itachi. Sasuke might know about them cause of reading the information in the dojo or whatever in the clans village after they were wiped out.

umm he knows about it because he experienced it....i'm sure Tsuande and other high ranking ninjas know about his genjutsus but i doubt they know in detail about it.

[DonEmu]

well didnt kakashi tell asuma and kurenai to close their eyes, i am assuming he knew somewhat what was going to happen but he wasnt fully informed, he knew that it was a sharingan jutsu, and knew it had to do with eyes, he assumed his normal sharingan could handle it, didnt itachi comment on this misconception be4 he used it on itachi...

[KageNaruto]

Kakashi probably knew due to his sharingan that Itachi was about to use a sharingan based genjutsu attack...I highly doubt that he knew about Tsukuyomi...especially since he thought he would be immune to genjutsus due to his sharingan.

As I recall Jiraiya and Naruto left the village prior to the battle between Itachi and Kakashi in konoha so the likelihood of Jiraiya knowing about Tsukuyomi is not that high unless he knew about it from way back when Uchiha clan was still intact. In addition Jiraiya was surprised by the escape of Itachi inside his frog esophogus jutsu using Amateratsu. It looked like he sealed the black flames of amateratsu to observe what exactly it is later imo.


he knows about tsukuyomi. he got it used on him. sure he might not know the name of the jutsu, but itachi even explained to him what was happening inside the gengitsu. he can easily conclude what it does and how it works from his encounter. i dont get how you say kakashi doesent know about tsukuyomi.

p.s. didnt kakashi see itachi's sharingan transoform into the MS form before he entered the gengitsu also?

[DonEmu]

i think they are talking be4 he met itachi...cause if they arent then thats just dumb...

[KageNaruto]

i think they are talking be4 he met itachi...cause if they arent then thats just dumb...

well of course he didnt know about it before! hence why he got MSed.

i was talking about it after, theres no argument about it before, i would think thats common sense, only sasuke knew about MS from all the people in konoha most likely, and i doubt hed tell kakashi something that secretive

[Aizen-diacho]

it's easy to say that no1 knew about the MS besides sasuke and maybe the hokage or elder council members.other than that i doubt anyone else knew about it.and kakahsi thought itachi was gonna hypnotize the others with his sharingan similair to what he did to zabuza.but he got owned with the ultimate genjutsus

[NarutoNineTails]

jiraiya knows about amaterasu. and i really doubt that kakashi WOULDNT tell jiraiya about the illusion version of MS since they seem to share info quite a lot. asuma and kurenai know about it too, as well as gai, im sure kakashi explained it to them further then what they saw.

Read more carefully what I mentioned KN. As I recall, Jiraiya left Konoha with Naruto prior to Kakashi's battle with Itachi. How would Jiraiya know about MS at that point of time then? I was making the point that Jiraiya probably didn't know about MS when he first encountered Itachi and Itachi could have taken advantage of this fact. Of course we can safely assume that all Konoha shinobis will be aware of MS now.

[NMK]

Of course the elder ninjas like Hokage should've assumed that Itachi has Mangekyou after the clan incident. I'm pretty sure that Kakashi also thought that Itachi has the Mangekyou Sharingan (before their fight).

[NarutoNineTails]

I don't think so...if Kakashi knew enough about MS then he would NOT have assumed that he would be immune to it. If Kakashi who has the sharingan didn't know much about MS then I doubt Jiraiya or Hokages knew the full extent of Mangekyou's powers either. This is supported by what I mentioned already couple posts ago...Jiraiya was surprised by Itachi's escape and how he sealed the black flames as if to find more about Amateratsu.

[NMK]

Kakashi having the Sharingan helped a lot when he got caught in the genjutsu of Itachi's Mangekyou, somebody else would propably have died in that position. But still Kakashi only has the Sharingan in one of his eyes so he won't be as immune to it as he would if he had Sharingan in both.

[NarutoNineTails]

And u just supported my opinion...lol. He still assumed that he would be immune to Itachi's genjutsus...if he knew enough about MS then he would have tried to avoid it all together. ;)

[NMK]

Maybe he knows enough about MS, but he didn't have the fact that he just has it in one eye.

[NarutoNineTails]

but he didn't have the fact that he just has it in one eye.

Kakashi just happened to forget that he only has sharingan in one eye? lol He's been fighting in that state for how long now and against the likes of Itachi he would forget such an important detail???...lol.

And we already know that Kakashi is pretty much immune to all genjutsus due to his sharingan. Why would this be the case using your logic then? Doesn't add up to me at all. ;)

[KageNaruto]

Read more carefully what I mentioned KN. As I recall, Jiraiya left Konoha with Naruto prior to Kakashi's battle with Itachi. How would Jiraiya know about MS at that point of time then? I was making the point that Jiraiya probably didn't know about MS when he first encountered Itachi and Itachi could have taken advantage of this fact. Of course we can safely assume that all Konoha shinobis will be aware of MS now.

my whole argument is about after the itachi encounter, not before. theres no argument before it. why? cause if jiraiya did somehow know(cause he seems to actually gather info) theres no way of proving it.

i never argued about anybody knowing it before they encountered itachi, theres no way to prove that at all

[NMK]

Kakashi just happened to forget that he only has sharingan in one eye? lol He's been fighting in that state for how long now and against the likes of Itachi he would forget such an important detail???...lol.

And we already know that Kakashi is pretty much immune to all genjutsus due to his sharingan. Why would this be the case using your logic then? Doesn't add up to me at all. ;)

I never said that Kakashi forgot that he only has it in one eye. What I said was that he didn't include that factor in the thought he had about being immune. He counted himself as a Uchiha, which he ain't. And if I remember correct then he should've said that he's only able to push the effects of MS genjutsu a bit, not completely. (sorry for bad spelling etc. etc. the time is 04:43am and I haven't got to bed yet, too lazy to sleep)

[NarutoNineTails]

I never said that Kakashi forgot that he only has it in one eye. What I said was that he didn't include that factor in the thought he had about being immune.
Why wouldn't he include that factor against the likes of Itachi? He has been including such factors when ever he raises his eye band to utilize the Sharingan. Kakashi is well aware of his limitations using the sharingan cuz he isn't an Uchiha...again your argument doesn't add up.


He counted himself as a Uchiha, which he ain't. And if I remember correct then he should've said that he's only able to push the effects of MS genjutsu a bit, not completely. (sorry for bad spelling etc. etc. the time is 04:43am and I haven't got to bed yet, too lazy to sleep)

Lol...when did Kakashi ever count himself as an Uchiha? And as I recall Kakashi didn't say that he was able to minimize the effect of MS having sharingan. That can be a possible explanation due to the comments made by Kisame when he was surprised by the fact that Kakashi was still conscious after Tsukuyomi.

From the evidence that I laid out, it suggests that few Konoha shinobis at the most knew about the possible exisitence MS but hardly any details about it. Your evidence doesn't even add up correctly to support the idea that top shinobis of Konoha were well aware of what MS was capable of.

theres no argument before it. why? cause if jiraiya did somehow know(cause he seems to actually gather info) theres no way of proving it.

i never argued about anybody knowing it before they encountered itachi, theres no way to prove that at all

There are lot of things that can't be proven outright. Still with the information given we can make educated guesses or argue a case it was one or the other. I think I've given my evidence to support my opinon...if someone can give me a better counter argument please do so.

[NMK]

Can I just ask one question, what's our argument based on? Kakashi not being an Uchiha (which he ain't). I'm a bit confused, oh yeah wasn't it about him not knowing about the MS? if that's the case then of course he knew about it, but as you said he didn't know any details.

[NarutoNineTails]

Of course Kakashi knew about MS??? Where's your evidence to support this? I've given several things from the anime that support the contrary.

[Nyuu]

Hm... Why don't you just ask Kakashi?
He's gonna tell you... I think... :p :D

[NMK]

That's what I've said all the time, he did know about MS, why? come on, after the Uchiha Clan tragedy a highranked ninja like Kakashi should've figured it out. And Itachi was suspected for the murder of his best friend, to obtain MS.

[NarutoNineTails]

lol...u do a pretty bad job of backing up your opinions...u make your opinions sound as if they are fact of narutoverse.

As far as I could tell MS was kept as a secret and only very few shinobis knew about its details. From how I interpreted the Itachi/Sasuke flashbacks, even most Uchihas were kept in the dark about MS. And it seems like Itachi being a suspect for the murder of his best friend was not made public and stayed within the Uchiha clan especially when Itachi's father stepped in and pleaded to other Uchihas that he would take care of Itachi's issues. So what makes you think Kakashi was able to find about its secrets? I don't think you have suggested one concrete evidence to suggest that Kakashi knew anything about MS. Even Jiraiya was surprised about Ameteratsu (Jiraiya was intent on killing Kisame and Itachi then with his esophogus jutsu/summon), a form of MS and what makes you think Kakashi knew more than Jiraiya? All you do is mention how Kakashi is good at gathering info, and how he should have figured out the secrets of MS by himself somehow. The evidence I laid out says otherwise so far...how bout trying to counter with some evidence from the anime this time? ;)

[NMK]

Talking about Jiraiya eh, if I remember he said "I was right" or something like that when he saw Itachi's MS. And yes I admit, there's no evidence, just thoughts, don't you think a genius ninja like Kakashi himself would've suspected Itachi having the MS? Honestly?

[NarutoNineTails]

"I was right" comment from Jiraiya? Jiraiya was pretty sure of himself then that he could kill off 2 akatsuki members then...and was surprised by the outcome...which directly supports my opinion that Jiraiya knew nothing about MS. If he did know about MS, I highly doubt Jiraiya would have been so confident that he could kill of 2 akatsuki members at once especially when Itachi was part of that group. I think what you meant by "I was right" comment from Jiraiya was referring to akatsuki trying to go after Kyubi/Naruto...it had nothing to about MS...lol.

[NMK]

Was a long time since I saw that but I'm rewatching Naruto and I'm pretty sure that it was something like that, btw, Jiraiya wasn't in Konoha when the Uchiha Clan got massacerd.

[NarutoNineTails]

Hmm how r u so sure if Jiraiya wasn't in Konoha then? Even if he wasn't around he seems to be WELL AWARE of things in Konoha and if anyone knew about MS other than top uchihas...the most likely suspect is Sandaime and Jiraiya. If Jiraiya didn't know about MS...the likelihood of Kakashi knowing is slim as well.

[NMK]

I never said Kakashi KNEW about it, I've only said that he propably suspected it, notice that I wrote PROPABLY and SUSPECTED.

I'm going to sleep now, we'll continue the discussion tommorow I hope?

NC:ers, add me to your msn list: nickecu@hotmail.com

[NarutoNineTails]

I never said Kakashi KNEW about it, I've only said that he propably suspected it, notice that I wrote PROPABLY and SUSPECTED.

I'm going to sleep now, we'll continue the discussion tommorow I hope?

NC:ers, add me to your msn list: nickecu@hotmail.com

lol...yes u did say "Kakashi knew about it":

oh yeah wasn't it about him not knowing about the MS? if that's the case then of course he knew about it, but as you said he didn't know any details.

[DonEmu]

Word of advice NMK, dont mess with a VET :D

[NarutoNineTails]

NMK's tone has changed a lot since a page ago hasn't it?

"of course he knew about it" vs. "he propably suspected it".

Isn't it common sense not to add "of course" when stating an opinion? ;)

[KageNaruto]

Read more carefully what I mentioned KN. As I recall, Jiraiya left Konoha with Naruto prior to Kakashi's battle with Itachi. How would Jiraiya know about MS at that point of time then? I was making the point that Jiraiya probably didn't know about MS when he first encountered Itachi and Itachi could have taken advantage of this fact. Of course we can safely assume that all Konoha shinobis will be aware of MS now.

like i said before, i wasnt arguing in that time period-_-, how many times did i say this so far?

(and if i already made this post, sorry. i didnt find it)

[NarutoNineTails]

just go back to your last post in this thread (page 14)...and I've responded to that also. ;)

[NMK]

Well NNT if I said that Kakashi KNEW about it then I'll just admit I was wrong, but he was definitly suspecting it, don't you think?

[NarutoNineTails]

NOW you r finally getting somewhere...and it could be argued both ways...but I think I have evidences that support my opinion better than yours.

Really though, what I really wanted to do was to teach you a lesson in how to respectfully express opinons. Don't state your opinion as if they are facts by using phrases like "of course" or "obviously" or the like. You r just setting yourself for failure...from the likes of me. ;)

[NMK]

Okay I admit that I do what you just said too often but I do that because I'm pretty sure that I'm right, partly right atleast.

But seriously, don't you think that Kakashi was suspecting it?

[NarutoNineTails]

Nope, because he got pwned by Tsukuyomi...if he suspected it than he would have handled that situation much better than he did imo. Kakashi does have the sharingan afterall, he could probably tell that Itachi was preparing to use a sharingan based genjutsu and it seems like that is the extent of what he knew about MS. There isn't one shred of evidence that supports the idea that Kakashi knew anything about MS...is that a coincidence? I don't think so.