Religion

[papfles]

Now, I know there has been a "does god exist"-thread in here, but this is based on a recent event.


Some of you may know "LittleBigPlanet", a game published by Sony for the PS3.

It is scheduled to come out in the near future (next week for some, two weeks for some others).

Now, the game is a platformer rated on average with 96%, so it's definitely a good game, and no one really had any comments.

However,

the game is now being delayed indefinitely, because some people made a ruckus over the game.

Apparently, one level contains a song (one that they got from a label and had come out two years before), in which 2 lines of the Qu'ran were mentioned.

Muslims have complained about this, and this led to a delay in the release of this game.



Questions:

Do you think this is overreacting?

Is this Muhammed cartoon pt.2?

Why would they make such a big deal about this?

[i_feel_tiredsleepy]

People are offended by everything.

Anyway Sony has the right to offend people if they want as long as they aren't promoting violence, it's up to them to decide if the publicity is good or bad, and they'll make there decision from there. It's not like they have strong sales in the muslim world they need to worry about.

[Peppercat]

I honestly don't see a problem here. Don't see anyone throwing a fit when media makes a Biblical reference.

anyone know what the lines actually say?

[papfles]

@remz:

The words are:

1- In the 18th second: "كل نفس ذائقة الموت" ("kollo nafsin tha'iqatol mawt", literally: 'Every soul shall have the taste of death').

2- Almost immediately after, in the 27th second: "كل من عليها فان" ("kollo man alaiha fan", literally: 'All that is on earth will perish').


(It's a song, made by a Muslim himself, and it fits into the "safari"-levels of the game. Sony licensed the song from a record label).

[Peppercat]

Well, yeah... i see nothing wrong.

It's true that everyone dies, even. >.<

[i_feel_tiredsleepy]

There is a slight difference in that Christianity has a long history of secularised musical use of biblical text going back hundreds of years. A tradition that doesn't exist in the muslim world, however this is an explanation of how this may offend.

Understanding why people are offended really doesn't matter, it would be polite and in general nice not to try and offend, but in a free world people have the right to offend.

It is also different from the danish cartoon, in that it is expressly forbidden to make images of the prophet, just like it is forbidden to make images of God. I also suspect that maybe a few muslims who complained are getting more coverage than they really deserve, and probably don't represent the opinion of the majority of muslims. Christian groups protest everything in sight too.

[Erotique]

People are offended by everything.


Your over-generalization is very offensive.

Therefore I hate joo... -__-

[papfles]

Oh, and just to add to the "sigh"-ness of the report:

It appears that the lyrics were in Somalian... which is of course a widely known and easily-to-offend-huge-numbers-of-people-in language....

[White Snake 66]

i joined hidans religion so i dont care i just kill to be imortal haha just kidding
i think that it does not matter as long as the game is not called
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDESTROY THE MUSLIMS
i think is ok

[Valleyman]

I got a bag of tissues for every Muslim who needs one.

[Owenotto]

Well, this is a very sensitive topic. you know....

[S.Haze]

I got a bag of tissues for every Muslim who needs one.

Whats that supposed to mean?

[estranged]

i think he means stop whining

[Nick]

this is hilarious considering that many muslims can't (or have never) read the quran in the first place. A large majority of them trust their religious leaders to teach and interpret the doctrinal text and they often end up taking on the views of that particular religious leader as their own...but seriously, this is across the board with organized religion........but, i still can't help but get the feeling that this is all part of their 'mainstreaming' effort to join the rest of civilized and educated society....as mentioned before, the song was composed by a self proclaimed muslim and now other muslims are trying to drag him down like crabs in a barrell. This is pretty common with most under-class factions of society....let's just bare with them for another 50 or 60 years till they complete their transition into the rest of civilized society...and if they still don't get it by then we'll be too old to care or maybe even dead and not bothered by it.

[ACPRO]

i find religion causes more problems than it does give faith to people. People seem to say that if you dont believe in religion you dont have any faith or hope in anything when thats not true at all. There are many different places you can draw those things from.

Personally i believe that most religious beliefs were created out of boredom and isolation rather than from actual true beliefs.

[S.Haze]

If the LPB song was made by a Muslim with lines from the Qu'ran I see no problems since Yusuf Islam (formely known as Cat Stevens and he is someone who is very religious) made many songs with lines from the Quran in it and nobody made any fuss of it.

[Eyeshield 21]

So is there a fatwa against Sony now?

[-Erios-]

Blame the FCC man

[Arty]

I disagree and i don't think this topic should even exist...

It would be so very epic if someone high up would just mock and make Islam a laughing stock...

Cause thats what it is.

[Fool Of Doom]

People are just trying to find something to complain about.

[Karin<3]

http://shrani.si/f/47/EL/3DMmVe03/1224409688719.jpg

[estranged]

i named my penis Muhammed

[Owenotto]

keep your mouth shutted ur penis up...

[DesecratioN]

People are offended by everything.

Anyway Sony has the right to offend people if they want as long as they aren't promoting violence, it's up to them to decide if the publicity is good or bad, and they'll make there decision from there. It's not like they have strong sales in the muslim world they need to worry about.


This

Either way you all know my stance on this sort of matters.

This is why organized religion in ALL FORMS must burn.

[paranoiaphantom]

Your signature....

Can you look around this world and believe
in the goodness of a god who rules it?
Famine, Pestilence, War, Disease and Death!
They rule this world.

This is why I feel you don't "get it". Why do you question these things but so ignorantly do not seek out the answer? War and disease are man-made. Nothing made by man is ever absolute. Nothing.

[KageNaruto]

Your signature....



This is why I feel you don't "get it". Why do you question these things but so ignorantly do not seek out the answer? War and disease are man-made. Nothing made by man is ever absolute. Nothing.

And God rules the universe. Case and point.

[Agent Y]

its al pointless to give your opinions, as it is to give mine. people wont change and you can't change them. end of discussion. people believe what ever the fuck they want to believe, so for fucks sake stop trying to counter one another with your own witty comeback. religion is what it is, a hope to keep people sane, while others go insane.

and if you reply to my message in some witty way, i pity you. you have proven my point if you do.

[DesecratioN]

Disease is man made?

War is man made?

Here I was thinking that disease are derived from biological agents which do exist within the bounds of nature. War is also not only present among men. You can see cases of hostile actions toward ones own species in animals. Certain species of apes fighting each other over territory. Lions killing he cubs of competitive lions things of that sort I am sure there are plenty of other examples I could provide should I have cared enough to muster them up.

[KageNaruto]

Disease is man made?

War is man made?

Here I was thinking that disease are derived from biological agents which do exist within the bounds of nature. War is also not only present among men. You can see cases of hostile actions toward ones own species in animals. Certain species of apes fighting each other over territory. Lions killing he cubs of competitive lions things of that sort I am sure there are plenty of other examples I could provide should I have cared enough to muster them up.

I agree except the animal part isn't war. Now if the lion has all the territory it needs, and then goes "that lion next to my territory sucks, I'm gonna go take his", that would be war. However once a lion has an established territory it only defends it.

War is usually also something that multiple members participate in. I guess you could say ant colonies have war, but most animal with spines don't.

[Agent Y]

actually, speaking of lions, males kills the cubs of other lions so that the mother of those lions dont have to produce milk and so forth those cubs anymore, hence entering the estrus cycle aka being in heat. once the female is in heat, the male who killed the cubs mates with that female leading to the birth of his cubs. its darwins survival of the fittest here. so no, its not war. and its not over territory.

[KageNaruto]

Not just lions. Many male animals kill the young to send the mother back in heat. Some scientists believe some dinosaurs did the same thing.

[Agent Y]

yes, i know. i was just referring to the post about lions killing over territory. its not about the territory more than it is about the lion making sure all the cubs are from his seed, as silly as that sound. like i said, survival of the fittest.

[estranged]

its al pointless to give your opinions, as it is to give mine. people wont change and you can't change them. end of discussion. people believe what ever the fuck they want to believe, so for fucks sake stop trying to counter one another with your own witty comeback. religion is what it is, a hope to keep people sane, while others go insane.

and if you reply to my message in some witty way, i pity you. you have proven my point if you do. hay, meet Muhammed, he's huge ryt?!

[Agent Y]

hay, meet Muhammed, he's huge ryt?!

you werent loved enough as a child, so you have to make fun of ppls religion to feel loved. i fucking pity you.

[estranged]

you werent loved enough as a child, so you have to make fun of ppls religion to feel loved. i fucking pity you.
i don't see how they're connected. if i weren't loved enough, shouldn't i be in gangs seeking acceptance and/or attention? that's what i always hear, and it's prevalent in the society i was raised in. =]

stop taking every little thing too seriously.

edit: oh and by the way

and if you reply to my message in some witty way, i pity you. you have proven my point if you do. you didn't make any point , not unlike me =D

[Agent Y]

im not taking anything seriously, i just hate people like you, its that simple. making fun of something that ppl hold close to themselves, like religion, in the way you did, i cant stand it, hence why i hate ppl like you. you're entitled to your opinion, but dont go naming prophets after your nonexistent penis.

and my point was that people in here try to counter ones opinion with their own. you didnt respond to my post in some witty opinion about religion and your opinion on it, so no you didnt prove my point, you just made yourself look foolish. like i said, i hate people like you.

[Erotique]

Not to offend anyone here but...

http://lauriekendrick.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/rodney_king.jpg

[estranged]

im not taking anything seriously, i just hate people like you, its that simple. making fun of something that ppl hold close to themselves, like religion, in the way you did, i cant stand it, hence why i hate ppl like you. you're entitled to your opinion, but dont go naming prophets after your nonexistent penis.

ah! you didn't get the point I was trying to make with that. Muhammed is the prophet's name, yes. but how many people in the world are named Muhammed? and i'd go further than this to say, how many pets in the world are named Muhammed? (i happen to know of a pet parrot named Moosa (Moses), why not Muhammed? )

do those Muhammeds walk around pompously claiming they're named after the prophet? nop. do the owners of said pets think twice before naming them Moses or Muhammed? i don't see why they should, they are just Islamic names, we see numerous people going by those names all over the world, and they're not prophets.



just because something is named Muhammed, Solomon, David, or Abraham, don't associate them with your prophets, they're just NAMES.
this form of stupidity we saw in Sudan's (was it Sudan? that's what i recall, it's been a while now) teddy bear business, and in this thread on narutochaos forums by The Agent Y.

and my point was that people in here try to counter ones opinion with their own. you didnt respond to my post in some witty opinion about religion and your opinion on it, so no you didnt prove my point i wasn't looking to prove your point, i just wanted to point out that you didn't make any point.
the whole purpose of a debate/discussion is to counter one's opinion with another's own.

[i_feel_tiredsleepy]

I agree except the animal part isn't war. Now if the lion has all the territory it needs, and then goes "that lion next to my territory sucks, I'm gonna go take his", that would be war. However once a lion has an established territory it only defends it.

War is usually also something that multiple members participate in. I guess you could say ant colonies have war, but most animal with spines don't.

Chimps effectively do fight war, and have been observed to commit genocide haha. They sometimes kill other packs for no reason at all.

[Karin<3]

Not to offend anyone here but...

http://lauriekendrick.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/rodney_king.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/G/yN/2k8yBnhO/1/1224015743541.jpg

[Katzyn]

Chimps effectively do fight war, and have been observed to commit genocide haha. They sometimes kill other packs for no reason at all.

Makes sense, since we're so closely related. =P

[mohamoud15]

Oh, and just to add to the "sigh"-ness of the report:

It appears that the lyrics were in Somalian... which is of course a widely known and easily-to-offend-huge-numbers-of-people-in language....This thread is pathetic, but I would like to know what the last part after which meant.I disagree and i don't think this topic should even exist...

It would be so very epic if someone high up would just mock and make Islam a laughing stock...

Cause thats what it is.Why is Islam a laughing stock? Whenever I watch a comedy show I hear Jesus... Jesus this. Jesus that. And in cartoons Christians show God and Jesus like it's nothing.

[Karin<3]

This thread is pathetic, but I would like to know what the last part after which meant.Why is Islam a laughing stock? Whenever I watch a comedy show I hear Jesus... Jesus this. Jesus that. And in cartoons Christians show God and Jesus like it's nothing.

Because the majority of Muslims are closed minded idiots and get ticked off like shit when someone mentions their religion or makes a joke about it. I mean who the fuck cares if they used lyrics from some old book. And why should they care ?

[mohamoud15]

You act like all Muslims are this way. Christians are like that too. Honestly what is peoples problems with Muslims. They aren't Muslims and they hate on people who are. I mean whenever you hear something about a Muslim it's something offensive like terrorist and whatnot. I also hate all religious quarrels. People now nothing about who they are talking to. And what you mean from some old book. Do you also refer the to the Bible as some old book?

[Nick]

...Honestly what is peoples problems with Muslims. They aren't Muslims and they hate on people who are...



maybe it's just because muslims are so world renown for their peaceful and unprejudice ways...oh, and not to mention their unconditional love for other non-muslim nations and cultures?

[Karin<3]

You act like all Muslims are this way. Christians are like that too. Honestly what is peoples problems with Muslims. They aren't Muslims and they hate on people who are. I mean whenever you hear something about a Muslim it's something offensive like terrorist and whatnot. I also hate all religious quarrels. People now nothing about who they are talking to. And what you mean from some old book. Do you also refer the to the Bible as some old book?

Yes i do, they are both old books and people should not fight over them and create irrational things.

And Christians are far less retarded then the Muslims are. Find me links of Christians sending a girl to get punished because she was a victim of rape, a person getting threatened of going to jail because they give some stupid name to a teddy bear, getting punished for wearing a band t shirt, and find me a link where people go apeshit just cause some sentences for a bible got used.

[the lost shinobi]

Now, I know there has been a "does god exist"-thread in here, but this is based on a recent event.


Some of you may know "LittleBigPlanet", a game published by Sony for the PS3.

It is scheduled to come out in the near future (next week for some, two weeks for some others).

Now, the game is a platformer rated on average with 96%, so it's definitely a good game, and no one really had any comments.

However,

the game is now being delayed indefinitely, because some people made a ruckus over the game.

Apparently, one level contains a song (one that they got from a label and had come out two years before), in which 2 lines of the Qu'ran were mentioned.

Muslims have complained about this, and this led to a delay in the release of this game.



Questions:

Do you think this is overreacting?

Is this Muhammed cartoon pt.2?

Why would they make such a big deal about this?

This really shouldn't be that big a deal. As a muslim I don't think it's a big deal and I'll explain why below

There is a slight difference in that Christianity has a long history of secularised musical use of biblical text going back hundreds of years. A tradition that doesn't exist in the muslim world, however this is an explanation of how this may offend.

Understanding why people are offended really doesn't matter, it would be polite and in general nice not to try and offend, but in a free world people have the right to offend.

It is also different from the danish cartoon, in that it is expressly forbidden to make images of the prophet, just like it is forbidden to make images of God. I also suspect that maybe a few muslims who complained are getting more coverage than they really deserve, and probably don't represent the opinion of the majority of muslims. Christian groups protest everything in sight too.

While not to the same as Christians have done over the years, Islam has had music intertwined with the Quran. But that almost always means that only lines from the Quran are used in music. People also sing prayers almost analogous to Gospel music. Which is why as a muslim I find this debate ridiculous. Muslims have been doing this for a very long time, and now a third party legally gains a liscence to the song an artist made (which isn't degrading in anyway or else it would never be released in Muslim countries), and now Muslims are getting all pissy. As a Muslim I am pissed at the other Muslims for drawing attention where none needs to be drawn.

Much of the religious music made by Muslims originated from Sufis. These were Arab Muslims who had read and memorized the Quran and were religious authorities. They wanted to create art that didn't conflict with the religion as would any Christian or Buddhist or any religious leader. The result was the music people listen to today in the Muslim world.

this is hilarious considering that many muslims can't (or have never) read the quran in the first place. A large majority of them trust their religious leaders to teach and interpret the doctrinal text and they often end up taking on the views of that particular religious leader as their own...but seriously, this is across the board with organized religion........but, i still can't help but get the feeling that this is all part of their 'mainstreaming' effort to join the rest of civilized and educated society....as mentioned before, the song was composed by a self proclaimed muslim and now other muslims are trying to drag him down like crabs in a barrell. This is pretty common with most under-class factions of society....let's just bare with them for another 50 or 60 years till they complete their transition into the rest of civilized society...and if they still don't get it by then we'll be too old to care or maybe even dead and not bothered by it.

Actually most Muslims have read the Quran. Moreso than any Christian ever has. Although you do bring up a point in that no one bothers to understand what they read. If they did we wouldn't have these ridiculous situations. Does anyone know which countries are lodging these complaints?

I disagree and i don't think this topic should even exist...

It would be so very epic if someone high up would just mock and make Islam a laughing stock...

Cause thats what it is.

Shut the fuck up Arty.

[i_feel_tiredsleepy]

Much of the religious music made by Muslims originated from Sufis. These were Arab Muslims who had read and memorized the Quran and were religious authorities. They wanted to create art that didn't conflict with the religion as would any Christian or Buddhist or any religious leader. The result was the music people listen to today in the Muslim world.


I said secular music, I know Islam makes use of chant like Gregorian Chant is used by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Both drawing on an earlier Hebrew tradition.

However, Christians started around 400-500 years using religious text in non-worship related music. Not that I'm an expert on Middle-Eastern and North African musical traditions though. Anyway a over-riding secularity in modern western music is undeniable.

I'm not one for any bashing of Muslims, I know plenty of very nice religious muslims, as well as plenty of loose practitioners. The situation in many middle eastern countries really is the result of a theistic-conservative backlash at an extended period of secular growth under the OE. It's more a result of the political and cultural history than the nature of the Islamic faith. Also, as usual the majority opinion isn't represented, but the opinion of those who shout the loudest.

There's no need to be overly offended by Arty's comment cause he considers all religions a laughing stock.

[the lost shinobi]

I said secular music, I know Islam makes use of chant like Gregorian Chant is used by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Both drawing on an earlier Hebrew tradition.

However, Christians started around 400-500 years using religious text in non-worship related music. Not that I'm an expert on Middle-Eastern and North African musical traditions though. Anyway a over-riding secularity in modern western music is undeniable.

I'm not one for any bashing of Muslims, I know plenty of very nice religious muslims, as well as plenty of loose practitioners. The situation in many middle eastern countries really is the result of a theistic-conservative backlash at an extended period of secular growth under the OE. It's more a result of the political and cultural history than the nature of the Islamic faith. Also, as usual the majority opinion isn't represented, but the opinion of those who shout the loudest.

There's no need to be overly offended by Arty's comment cause he considers all religions a laughing stock.

I made the distinction earlier in my post because most Muslim religious music makes use of the Quran as it's foundation. But yes I do agree with your view. In short this whole debate with Sont is pointless. The two lines they used are from the Quaran and they make true statements. Everyone dies is the gist of their meanings. Why would a Muslim or anybody be offended by that? It's just a repetition of a fact of life

oh and there does exist arab music that is secular. Since waaayy before Islam and continues to this day. In fact secular Arabic music greatly outweighs the religious music.

[mohamoud15]

This really shouldn't be that big a deal. As a muslim I don't think it's a big deal and I'll explain why below



While not to the same as Christians have done over the years, Islam has had music intertwined with the Quran. But that almost always means that only lines from the Quran are used in music. People also sing prayers almost analogous to Gospel music. Which is why as a muslim I find this debate ridiculous. Muslims have been doing this for a very long time, and now a third party legally gains a liscence to the song an artist made (which isn't degrading in anyway or else it would never be released in Muslim countries), and now Muslims are getting all pissy. As a Muslim I am pissed at the other Muslims for drawing attention where none needs to be drawn.

Much of the religious music made by Muslims originated from Sufis. These were Arab Muslims who had read and memorized the Quran and were religious authorities. They wanted to create art that didn't conflict with the religion as would any Christian or Buddhist or any religious leader. The result was the music people listen to today in the Muslim world.



Actually most Muslims have read the Quran. Moreso than any Christian ever has. Although you do bring up a point in that no one bothers to understand what they read. If they did we wouldn't have these ridiculous situations. Does anyone know which countries are lodging these complaints?



Shut the fuck up Arty.Being around people a lot they know nothing about Muslims. I always hear people ask other Muslims stuff like do you do this and that. They talk to the Muslims like they are a new religion and they know nothing about. And about reading I like the point that you brang up about knowing what they read. What do you think of the Muslims killing themselves and other Muslims. Do you believe it is because they don't know what they read.

[the lost shinobi]

are you refering to suicide bombings?

[mohamoud15]

Yes and the struggle of the Sunni and Shia.

[the lost shinobi]

lets discuss that elsewhere since I don't want to digress on this thread. I'll also respond later. I'm only passing by NC for a couple of minutes. School is on my back at the moment and I'd rather give this a good response.

[Nick]

Being around people a lot they know nothing about Muslims.

Forgive me, but are you trying to make a distinction here between 'muslims' and 'people'? it looks to me like you're speaking about these two entities in a seperate manner.


I always hear people ask other Muslims stuff like do you do this and that.

Yeah, that's generally how one would go about learning about another culture. We call that a 'primary source'.


They talk to the Muslims like they are a new religion and they know nothing about.

When compared to the rest of the mainstream organized religions Islam IS the newest one as the other's had alreadt been establised for several hundred years.


And about reading I like the point that you brang up about knowing what they read. What do you think of the Muslims killing themselves and other Muslims. Do you believe it is because they don't know what they read.

well i'm not sure what to make of that, but i do know that the quran says that all non believers (or infidels) must die...and i'm prepared to quote multiple verses if you insist.

[i_feel_tiredsleepy]

Haha well if someone organized a group of Christians to follow the book of Leviticus literally, they would be some pretty disgusting people.

[mohamoud15]

lets discuss that elsewhere since I don't want to digress on this thread. I'll also respond later. I'm only passing by NC for a couple of minutes. School is on my back at the moment and I'd rather give this a good response.PM me with your answer I want to have a good discussion with you.well i'm not sure what to make of that, but i do know that the quran says that all non believers (or infidels) must die...and i'm prepared to quote multiple verses if you insist.
Go ahead.
Forgive me, but are you trying to make a distinction here between 'muslims' and 'people'? it looks to me like you're speaking about these two entities in a seperate manner. No I was talking about how people don't know much about Muslims.

[i_feel_tiredsleepy]

Leviticus 20:27
''A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.''

Death to Harry Potter!

Leviticus

''20:9
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father’s wife hath uncovered his father’s nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. 20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them. 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. 20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you. 20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. 20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.''

See Christianity is essential just as bad.

[Arty]

the leviticus is kinda bad <.< true -_-

Aww :( I seem to have hit a soar spot on Lost <.<

Well i dno if i can blame him , most people are really offended by this stuff...

Im not saying Muslims are a laughing stock :( I pitty them mostly...

[DesecratioN]

the leviticus is kinda bad <.< true -_-

Aww :( I seem to have hit a soar spot on Lost <.<

Well i dno if i can blame him , most people are really offended by this stuff...

Im not saying Muslims are a laughing stock :( I pitty them mostly...

I don't necessarily pity any particular group so much as am astounded that people still are bound the shackles of organized religion ....

Oh and btw Nick Islam is pretty damn ancient... in fact its roots go back to a little passed that of the jews if I am not mistaken. it is by no means new.

[papfles]

This thread is pathetic, but I would like to know what the last part after which meant.

Care to explain why?

I don't understand the fuss about a song (as Lost explained as a Muslim, perhaps you will agree with his stance on this).
It is not derogatory towards Muslims, made by a Muslim, and to top it off, it's in a language so overwhelmingly unknown that I cannot understand such a fuss being made about it.
It's not as if we go "hahahahaha, they used the Qu'ran, ahahahahaha, those lame Muslims, we sure did get them by the balls by inserting this song into a game!"...

There wouldn't have been a single gaming soul in the world (and I'll even add the majority of Muslims in this, since they wouldn't have understood it either, unless Somalian is somehow a widely spread taught language in Muslim societies everywhere) who would've given a bo diddly about it.

Yet, the fact that such a thing gets protested against, is above and beyond any logical issue.


All I hear everywhere, is "show respect", but whenever something innocent happens, the part that usually shouts "respect", demands retribution immediately, while ignoring either the point (just a game, not meant to insult) or not showing respect themselves.

If one points to the Muhammed cartoons, I can understand the fuss a bit better. It was used as a way to mock Muslim extremists, and such cartoons have had a long history in Western society to point something out. This contrasts heavily with "do not portray our prophet", and that's something that needs to be balanced out. The fact that that turned out in "do as we say" (let's call it how it was) while practically ignoring the Western "freedom of speech", annoys me, but I can understand that better than this situation.

The fact that you say that this thread is pathetic, leads me to believe that you cannot handle any questions or criticism concerning your belief.
I have every right to state my opinion and question why the measures that were taken, apparently had to be taken.
Perhaps I should just go all "you're right, praise the prophet" and shut up, because that is what you seem to suggest.


I'm sorry, but I'm fed up with immediately being branded this and that when I (or someone else) question(s) something that deserves to be questioned (religion in general). Always easy to point the finger at the others, and never see the possible problems a religion (or your religion in this case) present.

*sigh*

[Owenotto]

I'm caring about this thread from the first time and apparently notice that some members are just biased-islamophobist. Take into consideration that it's more polite for a non-muslim not to offend Muhammad SAW or by any mean other anti-religion ocnum not to mock any fundamental believe. One won't gain nothing from it and actually i detest this kind of shit pathetic head who arrogantly ridicule other belief behind the safety of a computer screen.

[estranged]

One won't gain nothing from it and actually i detest this kind of shit pathetic head who arrogantly ridicule other belief behind the safety of a computer screen.
mods look, subtle threats!

[papfles]

@ owen: so this song is "mocking a fundamental belief"?

And again: if one is critical of any religion, one is immediately considered arrogant and such.

(edit: This all boils down to the "respect - want respect" issue again. I am not mocking Mohammed or whoever else is worshipped, but when I question the motives and the reasons for certain issues, I get a mouthful of abuse without any real substance behind the talk. I value freedom of speech, and in this case, there isn't even an issue to be had, but still it is being tackled by certain Muslims as an insult. So "respect for muhammed", but no respect for our values, even when those don't even collide?

Pointing and ignoring again...

[Owenotto]

read my post earlier, i'm caring bout this thread, i do not get offended by the song itself, but more to some moronic post from those islamophobist...
beside i personally know nothing of the song indeed...

[papfles]

@ owenotto: I hope you realize that some of those islamophobists (names, we want names!) are that way because they feel that they are being told how to relinquish certain basic rights and privileges of their society in order to "appease" certain Muslim factions and that they do not agree with that. That usually leads to rather ..uhm...volatile reactions.

[Owenotto]

yea, and yet we muslim hit no opportunity to counter those false perseption...
thanks to mass press nowadays, if you know what i mean...

[papfles]

Well, aside from tls (and you now), every other muslim I've seen reacting on gaming forums usually said that delaying the game and removing the song was the right to do and that they were justified for such a demand, because it is their law and it needs to be obeyed. (which is highly "my way, or the highway"-behaviour. And that's what most anti-islamics react to, I think... or well, I HOPE that's their reason).


And about getting an opportunity to counter those fals perceptions, I personally think you would have more luck if you tried countering the small minority that "ruins" it for the majority of Muslims, and not the ones reacting against those extremists.

[Owenotto]

Pap, i fairly accept your concept at general norm value. The commandment in some certain religion (including islam) is decisively strict and non-secular. However, this may hold contraries with those norms and consequently lead to false perseption. You may not find it against the norm but we muslim do concern about this.
Here comes a good discussion are needed.

[Katzyn]

This is mine theory: (and it is NOT meant to offend, upset, yaddayadda)

I think Muslims nowadays are super-sensitive to percieved insults. Why? Because there are SO many American (and others, I'm sure, but I can only speak about Americans) that think they are an "evil" people and love to go out of their way to insult them. They have become used to ridicule and hatred, that now almost anything said or done that could possibly be seen as "against" them or possibly "insulting", they jump on.

You know, a few months ago, back when quite a few of the main posters here and I were constantly arguing, because they thought I was a retard for feeling/thinking the way I did, I felt this way. Whenever they even mentioned my name, it was usually because they were insulting or joking about me. And even when they weren't -obviously- joking about me, or insulting me, it still felt like they might have been.

I feel this is probably how many Muslims feel these days.Not saying it's "right" or "wrong". It's probably wrong in some ways, since, if this was real life, it could have turned ugly and violent, when in fact, I truly doubt anyone MEANT to insult here (in this thread OR on the game).

Anyway, that's my theory. People are very sensitive about religion these days. Since religions are so widely mocked now, every little thing said might be percieved as an insult, even though that's not what was intended. I mean, we SAW that 16 year old kid turn from slightly-aggressive-bad-debator to angry-make-up-facts-while-spewing-insults-immature-teenager.

[Owenotto]

People do wrong, nobody's perfect. It is a normal mischief and tolerable to some extent. Continuously on purpose having the same volatile action is in a whole different case.

[Arty]

notice that some members are just biased-islamophobist

And you are suprised?

Take into consideration that it's more polite for a non-muslim not to offend Muhammad SAW or by any mean other anti-religion ocnum not to mock any fundamental believe.

Being polite and modest requires one to have respect.

One won't gain nothing from it and actually i detest this kind of shit pathetic head who arrogantly ridicule other belief behind the safety of a computer screen.

Gaining something materialistic doesnt really happen in discussions... All you gain another perspective , regardless wether or not you choose to follow it.

I see no arrogance in ridiculing religion in a very clean cut , organized and well researched way...

The safety of my computer screen is all nice. Regardless aside from physical attacks i believe i need less than any protection at all. Don't be fooled as to think monitor , keybord and mouse gives you a good argument , quite the contrary. I'm very soft on religion here on this forum , honestly... -

The monitor might protect me from violent muslims. But so does your monitor protect you from my mouth.

Edit : ohh , and im just banging the same lame drum as you.

[Owenotto]

So we know now that you islamophobist actually have no source of reasoning why you hate muslim. Extending everything further with you is pointless since you have less idea to reply my post instead of insulting me.
Cool your head off Art...

[Arty]

Did i insult you?

Did i say i "hate" Islam?

And your right , i have no intentions of extending anything from here.

Ive made over 100 posts in the "Does God Exist" thread. Im sorry if im not being very talkative and i know im not exactly presenting my case in a good manner.

Regardless , most of the people here have read the thread. You should also have , if your religion concerns you.

I layed down my case 2 years ago. And it still stands as rock solid as befor -

[Owenotto]

Thanks, "does God exist?" thread is over than 130 page and i have just read 15 pages or so...
I'm looking forward to it...

[mohamoud15]

Care to explain why?

I don't understand the fuss about a song (as Lost explained as a Muslim, perhaps you will agree with his stance on this).
It is not derogatory towards Muslims, made by a Muslim, and to top it off, it's in a language so overwhelmingly unknown that I cannot understand such a fuss being made about it.
It's not as if we go "hahahahaha, they used the Qu'ran, ahahahahaha, those lame Muslims, we sure did get them by the balls by inserting this song into a game!"...

There wouldn't have been a single gaming soul in the world (and I'll even add the majority of Muslims in this, since they wouldn't have understood it either, unless Somalian is somehow a widely spread taught language in Muslim societies everywhere) who would've given a bo diddly about it.

Yet, the fact that such a thing gets protested against, is above and beyond any logical issue.


All I hear everywhere, is "show respect", but whenever something innocent happens, the part that usually shouts "respect", demands retribution immediately, while ignoring either the point (just a game, not meant to insult) or not showing respect themselves.

If one points to the Muhammed cartoons, I can understand the fuss a bit better. It was used as a way to mock Muslim extremists, and such cartoons have had a long history in Western society to point something out. This contrasts heavily with "do not portray our prophet", and that's something that needs to be balanced out. The fact that that turned out in "do as we say" (let's call it how it was) while practically ignoring the Western "freedom of speech", annoys me, but I can understand that better than this situation.

The fact that you say that this thread is pathetic, leads me to believe that you cannot handle any questions or criticism concerning your belief.
I have every right to state my opinion and question why the measures that were taken, apparently had to be taken.
Perhaps I should just go all "you're right, praise the prophet" and shut up, because that is what you seem to suggest.


I'm sorry, but I'm fed up with immediately being branded this and that when I (or someone else) question(s) something that deserves to be questioned (religion in general). Always easy to point the finger at the others, and never see the possible problems a religion (or your religion in this case) present.

*sigh*Actually I thought you were insulting Somalian people. I didn't quite understand what you said. I know the language since my most of my family was born in East Africa and it's our main language. :thumb:(was covering it up to get a better understanding on things)
I understand what you mean by it not being widely known. I also don't see a problem with a song have any reference from the Quran. My parents have CD'S that read the Quran in our language but it's strictly just the Quran. When my parents came over here to the US they became more lenient than how they were raised. I like to talk about Religion, but at the same time I don't when it's people who sterotype and say outrageous things.

[spacecadet319]

I read the Quran and its an amazing book and very similar to the bible in what it says. I find it amazing how easily people are ready to stereotype Muslims just because of what they hear in the media or elsewhere. I always say its better to form your own opinion, you can gain insight from talking and listening but it still doesn't mean the ideas are yours, so its always better to go back and see where people are getting their information.

As far as religion goes, it is a good tool but I think that it gives power to a lot of wrong people. Many people use religion as a way to control others, for example the government and how no one even dares vote for a president who isn't "Christian" and for a country like the U.S. who SHOULD enforce separation of church and state, religion still holds a very powerful grasp on people's minds.

Education and open-mindedness I think is our strongest tool to achieving mutual understanding and unity but many greedy people would rather see us stay ignorant in order to make money of our misery and subservience. The day I see a true revolution is probably the day I see pigs fly but that still doesn't excuse the fact that you will be passing on this fucked up world to your children.

[mohamoud15]

As far as religion goes, it is a good tool but I think that it gives power to a lot of wrong people. Many people use religion as a way to control others, for example the government and how no one even dares vote for a president who isn't "Christian" and for a country like the U.S. who SHOULD enforce separation of church and state, religion still holds a very powerful grasp on people's minds.
I agree with this one hundred percent. Also the Bible,Quran, and The Torah are all similar if I remember correctly. Only some things are different. My friend told me that World War III will be a war fought by all the main religions. But the media is what I hate sometimes. Also I also think of not voting for some who isn't a Christian is just terrible. Why does it matter what religion you are? If you go back in history you can see how so many people died and they used religion as an excuse to kill and expand their land. But can you explain to me the issue of separation of church and state.

[Katzyn]

I agree with this one hundred percent. Also the Bible,Quran, and The Torah are all similar if I remember correctly. Only some things are different. My friend told me that World War III will be a war fought by all the main religions. But the media is what I hate sometimes. Also I also think of not voting for some who isn't a Christian is just terrible. Why does it matter what religion you are? If you go back in history you can see how so many people died and they used religion as an excuse to kill and expand their land. But can you explain to me the issue of separation of church and state.

I know, it's ridiculous! I know someone whose friend said she's going to vote for McCain solely because he's Christian. That's just asinine. I'm not going to vote, but even if I was, I wouldn't vote for Obama because I'm not Christian (thought, if I was voting, I'd be leaning more towards him anyway).

[spacecadet319]

It is stated in the Constitution as proposed by Thomas Jefferson that government needs to be separated from any influence of religion. This was proposed in order to prevent any one religion from gaining power like was in Europe which in the first place forced people to migrate to America pursuing religious freedom. This is why the First Amendment mentions freedom of religion and initially separation of church and state serves to enforce that freedom.

However, we all know that traditionally the United States began with a heavily Christian influence and that is why its almost inconceivable that a US president is someone other than Christian, Kennedy was the first Catholic I believe. Hopefully Obama if he gets elected can break that barrier further, even though he is Christian a lot of people for some reason think hes Muslim.

Religion is fine as long as it doesn't force itself upon others but unfortunately it does. Many communities that are very religious prey upon the minority that choose their own spiritual path. There have been many instances where children of aetheists become targets for the other religious children and the teachers don't do anything to stop such behavior. I find it quite ironic that a religion like Christianity that teaches peace and love can be so cruel to differences. Its like these people didn't even read the Bible and the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus' teachings which are also pretty much all over the Koran are quite revolutionary and I don't think the world is ready for them. Jesus borrowed heavily from the ideas of Buddhism and modernized them for his society at the time. People wouldn't understand his teachings unless it involved a deity but what he really meant about heaven was that is everyone accepted his teachings then in reality the Earth would become a utopia. I believe Mohamoud also tried to do the same thing in reference to his culture.

In the end it's up to you to believe in a deity or whatever it is that makes you happy to be alive. People are too lazy to actually start doing things to change the way the world works. I plan to make money to help other people and hopefully that would help them with their problems, I wish I could do it differently but money is the way our society functions at the time so my goal is going to be based around making money. Whether I affect the world or a small number of people is irrelevant, as long as I do my part to change another person's life for the better and that in my opinion is the idea behind all religion.

[Arty]

I see alot of kind and politically correct people...

So lets ask..

Why be so damn respectful?

[spacecadet319]

The question is why not be respectful? Personally I see no point in not being empathic towards others, what you do is up to you so if you want to be a hater thats your call but I think its just an excuse for your own self-loathing. I find it unreasonable to not respect the opinions of others so what you do is entirely your call so go ahead and be a hater I will respect you anyway.

[mohamoud15]

However, we all know that traditionally the United States began with a heavily Christian influence and that is why its almost inconceivable that a US president is someone other than Christian, Kennedy was the first Catholic I believe. Hopefully Obama if he gets elected can break that barrier further, even though he is Christian a lot of people for some reason think hes Muslim.

If I remember correctly obama's dad was Muslim but he died and he was raised by his Christian mother. The way I see it religion is just something you follow/worship. You aren't necessarily born a Christian and you always hear people converting. As for being respectful that is givin. Why not be respectful? What do you gain from being a brut or infidlel? I understand how people have different views in life and I respect that. Just like spacecadet said I want to give back and help out the people who don't have it as great as I do. I use religion of more of a guideline of how to live my life. I follow it closely. I might be a Muslim but I also like and take in some stuff from Buddhist and other religions. It's good to have an open-mind. And living in America it's hard not being drilled information from the Bible and references from it. Like space said America started with Europeans seeking religious freedom and killed the indians forced people to convert and because heavy on religion. And states like Pennsylvania where formed for religous freedom since some didn't allow non-Christians.But some used religion as an excuse to expand land(manifest destiny). I also like to read you guys views on does God exist.

[Arty]

The question is why not be respectful? Personally I see no point in not being empathic towards others, what you do is up to you so if you want to be a hater thats your call but I think its just an excuse for your own self-loathing. I find it unreasonable to not respect the opinions of others so what you do is entirely your call so go ahead and be a hater I will respect you anyway.

Respecting others opinion? What kind of foolish thing would that be -

I think you are confusing the polite saying : Respect an individuals right to an opinion.

-

Alot of people misinturprid this nowdays , - Everyone is entitled to their own opinion does not mean an opinion or a view is some sort of immunity shield for your stupidity.

Quite the contrary , - If you openly address others and express your opinion you automaticly give away the right to freedom from criticism. Its so very subjective -

I see no reason why any man should respect religion , to me - loathing or even hate towards the it is both justified and clever in its own sense.

Don't fool your self as to think you , religious people differ from others cause you have a publicly accepted way of stupidity.

[papfles]

@ mohamoud:

Fine, respect is something that most people think is a prerequisite for each human to give and receive.

The major problem with religious nutters (and I'm singling out the nutters because someone who has faith but who keeps religion to himself, is fine) is that they demand respect for their religion and want everyone to drop down and bow down to that religion without showing respect themselves. Anything that questions that religion, is immediately treated as disrespect, eliminating any possibility to discuss or find a consensus.

An additional problem (that I see nowadays) is that other religious people (mostly moderate) feel the need to defend their religion because it gets attacked by others (well, let's say people like myself, ifts, arty and whoever says something "negative" about a religion, whether it is meant as an attack or merely a discussion point).

The problem lies not in the fact that they defend it (everyone should stand up for their beliefs with reasoning and understanding), but that they actually defend it (imho) against the wrong people.

You should be going against the ones within your own religion that cause such a bad image of the Islam to be shown to the outside world.

Most of us don't care whether you are lutheran, presbyterian, methodist, buddhist, muslim or just plain crazy, as long as your personal belief remains within the boundaries of your own life.

Those are the biggest issues that I have with some religious factions:

1) they defend their belief in a way that it comes across as "my faith is to be respected, and you will obey that religion's dominance in life".
2) they defend their religion while they should be "cleaning" their own religion from the inside from the bad things (fanatics and such).


The fact that a game, with absolutely no intention to harm or any foul play, creates such a discussion means that certain liberties are being breached and also that attention is pointed into the wrong direction (where it should be directed against extremists and fanatics within a religion, who have to learn that something like "freedom of speech" overrules something like "personal choice of religion" imho).

Problems shouldn't be created there where there are none.

[Owenotto]

1) They defend their belief because they have to. It's a compulsory for a muslim to defend when their religion gets offended. Several verses in Qur'an are strictly leading us to this and some of the verses even prior this statement. We have the very every right to be defensive and that's what we'll do.
2) Cleaning the religion? What is this about?
Qur'an hasn't changed a single punctuation for 14 centuries and we hold It as our rule.

[partlink1]

1) They defend their belief because they have to. It's a compulsory for a muslim to defend when their religion gets offended. Several verses in Qur'an are strictly leading us to this and some of the verses even prior this statement. We have the very every right to be defensive and that's what we'll do.

no one has to defend their religon; and you just grouped your own people in a stereotypical fashion; in case you didnt catch it (that is important because well the faction of Muslims that people are afraid of are also Muslim, you know Al quada (or however you spell it))

Also why do Muslims have to make a big deal about a picture of Allah? I mean holding a protest/riot over a caricature?? really??

2) Cleaning the religion? What is this about?
Qur'an hasn't changed a single punctuation for 14 centuries and we hold It as our rule.

No, but interpretation has. that is something true for all religions, yours is not special in that manner.

Oh for the record I hold no Religious affiliation personally I feel like religion is just people worshiping Harry Potter

[papfles]

@ owenotto:

Very well. I can understand that you need to defend your religion (something fanatical christians will do as well).

But seriously, if we take this situation as an example (the song being used):

If we question the fact that some Muslims blow up (no pun intended) about that and act as if the entire world is against Muslims because Sony added a song without the knowledge it contained Qu'ran references, don't you agree that other Muslims should act against those few Muslims that exaggerate, instead of acting against us (us being the ones that question the motives of those few Muslims)?

Surely you do not merely blindly follow a "we must defend Islam, no matter what, because the book tells us so"-rule, but can decide for yourself when and where such defense is needed and wanted?

[Owenotto]

@partlink
1) You obviously do not know anything about muslim. "WE MUSLIM HAS TO DEFEND AND PRAISE OUR RELIGION" theory is absolute commandment in Islam.
And about Al-Quada, how do you generally insinuate that Al-Quada has to do something to way of Islam. Al-Quada is not the true reflection of Islam. So please stop generalizing people.

[Arty]

He didnt generalize anyone.

And how does your religion get offended i ask...

Is it offended if i claim it asks unreasonable things of its followers? That it deludes people? That it is by all logical standars total bullshit.

[tsunade ^_^]

Err Lesee. As you all know by now, Im so fkd up that I dont believe in "THE" God haha
So I cant say much in this thread.

But what I would just like to say is the following:
When it comes to Religion I think what all people should take in is, TOLLERANCE and RESPECT. We should respect other people and their religions and have patience with it too. We should not discriminate.. (no matter how much we pitty or feel about certain religions and people who practice or believe it)

[papfles]

When it comes to Religion I think what all people should take in is, TOLLERANCE and RESPECT. We should respect other people and their religions and have patience with it too. We should not discriminate.. (no matter how much we pitty or feel about certain religions and people who practice or believe it)

And the point that many here make, is that religion requires it but doesn't give it.

[Arty]

Why...

Why respectful? Why tolerant.

[tsunade ^_^]

Dude, no point in telling me. I dont give a fook about religion. I've learnt that either way, if its in my life or not, it doesnt make a difference in my life. Because things are still fooked up =(

[Arty]

nvm.............................

[tsunade ^_^]

Nani? O_o.......

[Katzyn]

If you don't try to at least make it LOOK like you respect the person and/or something they are closely tied to, you won't get educate them much, if that is what you're trying to do. They'll shut down and refuse to listen to anything you say, even if you say something you KNOW is true. That's why you "should" try to be respectful.

And what's wrong with being a little respectful? Sure, religions expect respect, but don't often give it in turn, but two wrongs don't make a right. That's how fights break out, most often; two people who don't respect each other start debating about something, then it turns ugly and all they do is insult each other. Not very productive, IMO.

Of course, there's always the people who, no matter how you talk to them, they always think they're right and you're wrong...and to top it off, they insult you as well. Kinda hard to respect someone like that...

The respect thing SHOULD work both ways, but sadly, it doesn't.

I just find you get better results when you make it at least SEEM like you're being respectful. Obviously, people are great liars, so it's not too hard to fake a little respect, unless your pride just gets too in the way, for some reason.

[Owenotto]

I see that mass media products are so damn influencial to society's opinion. They delude the brain through the skull and banging society's objection utterly. Whatever they say is what people believe, regardless of the truth happened, these products are very suggestive.
Muslims are the exact sample of this false perception victim created by mass media. It tells people that Islam is harmful and so people believe. Thanks to CNN and whatever...

[papfles]

@ owenotto: that's just pointing the blame again at something.

I am asking YOU why one must defend the religion, even when others from that religion have admitted that certain believers harm the religion?

I ask you whether one should not tackle the issues within the religion itself, and you keep pointing to mass media portraying a false image. Most people are smart enough to realize it's a small minority, but the answer gets repeated over and over again "it's the media".

Let's get this over and done with: It's first and foremost those few cases that mess it up for the overall view of the religion. Of course it doesn't help that those cases get media coverage, but that's essentially not the point.

So I'll ask again:

Why must one defend the religion, when it can be better defended by showing that one does not agree with the religious nutcases / dangerous cases and do something about those cases oneself, instead of going "whaaaaaaaaa, why offend Islam!". By defending the religion (without exception it would seem), the only message that comes across, is: "Islam is what must be believed, and no matter how crazy some people may act because of Islam, it is okay BECAUSE it's for the Islam".

WHY not oppose those figures as a Muslim yourself? They are the ones harming the religion the most.

[sasuke123uchiha]

@ owenotto:

Very well. I can understand that you need to defend your religion (something fanatical christians will do as well).

But seriously, if we take this situation as an example (the song being used):

If we question the fact that some Muslims blow up (no pun intended) about that and act as if the entire world is against Muslims because Sony added a song without the knowledge it contained Qu'ran references, don't you agree that other Muslims should act against those few Muslims that exaggerate, instead of acting against us (us being the ones that question the motives of those few Muslims)?

Surely you do not merely blindly follow a "we must defend Islam, no matter what, because the book tells us so"-rule, but can decide for yourself when and where such defense is needed and wanted?

ok i'm muslim my self and following the book is what are prophet told us to do with out it were lost and i cant seem to find why ppl hate muslims

[papfles]

@ sasuke: not everyone who questions the religion, is a hater. I for one, merely wish to discuss certain issues that I cannot grasp.

So, because the prophet says that one must abide by the book, you will accept that others who do it in their own way, actually harm the religion, or harm other people because of it?

That's my point. I usually get either a wall of "we're the victims, we're being portrayed as evil" or "the book says so" answers, without personal addition, just pointing to the book or something else that doesn't answer the question.
I've asked the same question for the past three or four posts now, and I haven't gotten a single, clear, personal answer.

[sasuke123uchiha]

@ sasuke: not everyone who questions the religion, is a hater. I for one, merely wish to discuss certain issues that I cannot grasp.

So, because the prophet says that one must abide by the book, you will accept that others who do it in their own way, actually harm the religion, or harm other people because of it?

That's my point. I usually get either a wall of "we're the victims, we're being portrayed as evil" or "the book says so" answers, without personal addition, just pointing to the book or something else that doesn't answer the question.
I've asked the same question for the past three or four posts now, and I haven't gotten a single, clear, personal answer.

ok it's time to answer your question some ppl feel that it will harm the religon and in other words insulting them and if you ask me i just dont mind it i just ignore it

[Owenotto]

@papfles
I'm sorry if i got to far and be off topic. I'm not pointing people. I used "people" instead of "you" and i wasn't directly responding to you. Moreover, opposing certain person you mentioned is not likely effective, the result is always the same insult.
And i blame media? What's wrong in blaming something for what it had done? I could bring a good explanation if you ask and find me a good discussion...

[Arty]

They delude the brain through the skull and banging society's objection utterly. Whatever they say is what people believe, regardless of the truth happened, these products are very suggestive.

That so hypocritical. Seriously - For a religious person to say this...

ok i'm muslim my self and following the book is what are prophet told us to do with out it were lost and i cant seem to find why ppl hate muslims

Pick up a map and compass...

[sasuke123uchiha]

Pick up a map and compass...

what do you mean by that?

[Arty]

What do you mean by "we are lost without it".

[sasuke123uchiha]

What do you mean by "we are lost without it".

what i mean is that it's our guidance

[Arty]

How does it guide you? Why do you claim you need a guide?

[sasuke123uchiha]

How does it guide you? Why do you claim you need a guide?

it's kind of like telling what's right and what's wrong

[Owenotto]

That so hypocritical. Seriously - For a religious person to say this...
You could say that i'm hypocrite, hence i could be reactive in manner...
You've gotta admit that my point at least is right on the sport...

[tsunade ^_^]

what i mean is that it's our guidance


Fook me. Religion cant be our guidance. Im sorry. I refuse to believe that. Like I said earlier. It didnt help me. And how in you opinion, is it supposed to guide us? Please enlighten me, because maybe i did something wrong, Which I highly doubt lol

[Arty]

it's kind of like telling what's right and what's wrong

If that was right , youd be a very very bad person <.<

[Owenotto]

@tsunade, your stance is very different with us but here i'll try though.
For those who believe in the afterlife existence should be collided with hell and heaven issues (if you were one). Obviously, everyone will choose heaven and cling to it. But you won't know how to get there unless a guide is provided. Hence, we muslim are chasing after heaven and our guidance is Qur'an.

As i said before, your stance is different, so no need to consider it.

[sasuke123uchiha]

If that was right , youd be a very very bad person <.<
huh what do you mean by that?

[tsunade ^_^]

@tsunade, your stance is very different with us but here i'll try though.
For those who believe in the afterlife existence should be collided with hell and heaven issues (if you were one). Obviously, everyone will choose heaven and cling to it. But you won't know how to get there unless a guide is provided. Hence, we muslim are chasing after heaven and our guidance is Qur'an.

As i said before, your stance is different, so no need to consider it.

Nothing to do with my stance. Im just a bit confused in my life now. mkk?

Thanks for that explination. I get now what you are saying. That accepting God into our hearts means we are one step closer to heaven.

But see the error I see in that is that what will become of me who doesnt believe theres heaven and hell?

[sasuke123uchiha]

Nothing to do with my stance. Im just a bit confused in my life now. mkk?

Thanks for that explination. I get now what you are saying. That accepting God into our hearts means we are one step closer to heaven.

But see the error I see in that is that what will become of me who doesnt believe theres heaven and hell?

well in our religion if you want to get to heaven you have to believe in it and alot of other stuff too like praying, fasting, helping the needy etc

[Owenotto]

There is no answer from on something like that, you don't believe a God, so is hell and heaven...
beside, the one who decide wether someone going to where is not a human like me...

[Arty]

huh what do you mean by that?

The Qur'an is full of prejudice , arrogand and ignorant claims. To be honest , all the Qur'an and the Islamic religion goes on about is submission. Submission to a prelaid divine path they are told is right.

And that is exactly the problem , that is exactly the reason suicide bombers exist in the first place.

Retrospec the whole Qur'an sounds like the Exodus in steroids... And some ayats make the Leviticus seem soft.

[i_feel_tiredsleepy]

This thread like went way out of control over the weekend lol.

[sasuke123uchiha]

The Qur'an is full of prejudice , arrogand and ignorant claims. To be honest , all the Qur'an and the Islamic religion goes on about is submission. Submission to a prelaid divine path they are told is right.

And that is exactly the problem , that is exactly the reason suicide bombers exist in the first place.

Retrospec the whole Qur'an sounds like the Exodus in steroids... And some ayats make the Leviticus seem soft.

lol the quran dosen't support killing atall infact killing without a reason is forbidden in our religion.

[papfles]

@papfles
I'm sorry if i got to far and be off topic. I'm not pointing people. I used "people" instead of "you" and i wasn't directly responding to you. Moreover, opposing certain person you mentioned is not likely effective, the result is always the same insult.
And i blame media? What's wrong in blaming something for what it had done? I could bring a good explanation if you ask and find me a good discussion...

So a simplification of the situation:

Game with a song

some Muslims find it offensive, demand it be taken out

Gamers respond by questioning whether this is not a bit too much to demand

Muslims cry out for respect (let's ignore that there was nothing to be offended by, to begin with).

I ask why those muslims don't discuss it with those other muslims, trying to find a lenient position concerning the situation

Answer: not effective, we'll rally against the ones who did something against the Islam, because that's not allowed?

:-/


If you blame the media, allow me to blame narrow-minded people (in this case, "religious muslim nutters") to create the image surrounding the faith. If you wish a faith to be considered as something normal, weed out the abnormalities (fanatics, nutters, ...) instead of protecting them in the name of your faith.


lol the quran dosen't support killing at all those are idiot muslim ppl that suicide just to get self satisfaction of killing a non muslim which also is not suported in our religion
Reply With Quote

HMmm, then why is the Qu'ran considered to be the word of Allah, which cannot be questioned, and which DOES contain passages telling to do horrendous things? (Just like the Bible has passages that contain maliciousness).

And if those suiciding muslims are not supported by the religion, why do the other muslims not rise up against this injustice done in their religion's name? It would make it a whole lot easier if that were done within the religion itself.

[Arty]

I don't think you understand what your religion is about.

The name of your religion means submission , - It means to forfeit your own self interest to a Ideological Crusade.

Religious Meme's have bin passed down the genetic lines before we started counting time. They are the oldest , most evolved and with no doubt strongest viruses of our minds. They are so strong that at one point they became independent , free from the limits of genetic heritage and grew and spread from celibate groups. Capable of enslaving the human , robbing him of his self interest so that it can be passed onto another.

Illogical Belief , - Extreme Nationalism , Religion are the only thing that are capable of hijacking the mind of a human being. Stripping it of all self awareness to the point where it will go against its own genetic fitness to pass the Meme.

Put in a biological context there are millions of Meme's that live within us and are passed down subtly.

Every host is responsible for his Meme's , that does not mean he is held accountable for any variations of his Meme in other hosts that could cause harm. He is on the other hand , responsible for the content and effects of his own.- That is exactly what makes religion so dangerous yet it is treated the exact opposite way. Religious people are not held accountable for the effects of their ideology ,- And why is that?

Again i ask you to put this into a Darwinian biological context of evolution , - How far would a Meme witch emphasizes on being responsible go? If religion where to take responsibility for the damage they caused there would be none left. And there we come to one of the brilliance in creation of religious Meme's. Their self protective nature through any means possible ,- We are all under their influence in one way or another. Some are so hopelessly lost to them they will sacrifice their life , willingly so that they can protect the Meme. Forever have these Meme's bin infecting us , slowly but gradually increasing their strengths to the point where they are the strongest factor in all social behavior and if socialization does not work physical strength will.

Your a slave to a Meme , idea , thought or simply an opinion.

[i_feel_tiredsleepy]

Richard Dawkins *sigh* haha.

I don't necessarily pity any particular group so much as am astounded that people still are bound the shackles of organized religion ....

Oh and btw Nick Islam is pretty damn ancient... in fact its roots go back to a little passed that of the jews if I am not mistaken. it is by no means new.

Islam is one of the youngest Abrahamic religions.

Judaism is the oldest, followed by Christianity, then Islam, then Mormonism and Jehovah Witnesses (which are distinct religions not sects of Christianity since they use new religious text, although if you ask a Mormon or Jehovah Witness what they are they would call themselves Christians.)

If you bring sects into it, protestantism comes between Islam and Mormonism.

[Arty]

The meme of memes are not entierly entitled to Dawkins.

Regardless , putting ideas and thoughts into the context of biological evolution is prolly the greatest thing he ever discovered.

[i_feel_tiredsleepy]

The meme of memes are not entierly entitled to Dawkins.

Regardless , putting ideas and thoughts into the context of biological evolution is prolly the greatest thing he ever discovered.

I still think he's a mediocre biologist. Much more talented than I, but still :p.

[Arty]

-_-

He is very respected for the work in Genetic Evolution and most likely one of the top in that field as he pretty much created it. Companies like Decode and CTP are built on some of his researches and many owe those companies their life :)

Although i will agree with you , his biology is clouded by literature in his books. -

Applying Relgious memes to the evolutionary context is Dennets idea though.

[i_feel_tiredsleepy]

I hate him, but I still recommend anyone who wants to understand evolution but doesn't have a scientific education to read The Ancestor's Tale because it's very clearly written and easy to understand.

He has a great ability for explaining biology to people who aren't educated in the field.

[Arty]

Well Sleepy.

Think of it from a marketing perspective.

Why so serious?

--- Reductionaism is the simple way to understanding complexity. It is the most important aspect of understanding and teaching -

[i_feel_tiredsleepy]

Well Sleepy.

Think of it from a marketing perspective.

Why so serious?

--- Reductionaism is the simple way to understanding complexity. It is the most important aspect of understanding and teaching -

Haha, the great Dawkins/Gould divide. I personally just think Dawkins has capitalized on popularization of theories that aren't actually his for the most part. Moreover, he was famous for holding a gene-centered view when there was quite a bit of contradictory evidence. Now days there are new theories like Kin-selection and reciprical-altruism that deal with these issues, making his theories less controversial. Blah he just held a view that he couldn't prove and others had to prove it for him.

Edit: I personally think phenotypic selection rather than gene-level selection is easier to understand for most people who don't really know anythinga bout genetics.

[Arty]

Haha, the great Dawkins/Gould divide. I personally just think Dawkins has capitalized on popularization of theories that aren't actually his for the most part. Moreover, he was famous for holding a gene-centered view when there was quite a bit of contradictory evidence. Now days there are new theories like Kin-selection and reciprical-altruism that deal with these issues, making his theories less controversial. Blah he just held a view that he couldn't prove and others had to prove it for him.

Edit: I personally think phenotypic selection rather than gene-level selection is easier to understand for most people who don't really know anythinga bout genetics.

Well , he introduced the gene centered view of evoultion around 1970. - I would'nt be suprised if he lacked the details <.< And the reciprocal altruism was Dawkins target of explenation with his book - The Selfish Gene 1976.

And really , the reciprocal altruism is a poor theory since its just an evolutionary adaption to altruism. A counter arguement for the dead assistant argument altruism was refuted with. And although Thives or what his name was made a brilliant "discovery" and had a good tag for naming things all he did was find a way for altruistic development.

And kin-selection is way older than the Genetic Evolution -

But i will agree , hes more of a zoologist than a pure biologist, - The memes are still brilliant.

Edit : Lol , and he is after all the "Chair for the Public Understanding of Science at the University of Oxford" I suppose he needs to make it simple for people to understand ;)

[i_feel_tiredsleepy]

Well , he introduced the gene centered view of evoultion around 1970. - I would'nt be suprised if he lacked the details <.< And the reciprocal altruism was Dawkins target of explenation with his book - The Selfish Gene 1976.

And really , the reciprocal altruism is a poor theory since its just an evolutionary adaption to altruism. A counter arguement for the dead assistant argument altruism was refuted with. And although Thives or what his name was made a brilliant "discovery" and had a good tag for naming things all he did was find a way for altruistic development.

And kin-selection is way older than the Genetic Evolution

Kin Selection as by Hamilton is from the same period, and it wasn't integrated with the gene eye view approach until later. Before hand it was viewed as a mechanism of group selection, rather than a mechanism of gene selection.

I agree reciprocal altruism is a poor theory, but the problem is that altruism shouldn't exist in a system of gene selection without reciprocal altruism.

Anyway I believe that at a certain level gene selection is obviously true, but there may be more at play.

[partlink1]

@partlink
1) You obviously do not know anything about muslim. "WE MUSLIM HAVE TO DEFEND AND PRAISE OUR RELIGION" theory is absolute commandment in Islam.
I don't, so can you please enlighten me to the way you view your religion and ideals of the religion


And about Al-Quada, how do you generally insinuate that Al-Quada has to do something to way of Islam. Al-Quada is not the true reflection of Islam. So please stop generalizing people.

I guess i tried to be clever, failing miserably, but what I meant to say is that your "Islamaphobes" are created by the actions of Al-Quada at least here in America

most of the Americans are closed minded and when a vicious group attacks claiming to do things because it's the way their religion commands them to. People tend to feel that they are speaking for the whole community/religion.

I my self am more of a humanist, I guess you would say, my feelings are that everyone's different and has different ways of interpreting meaning which will result in different personalities no matter what you read, see, or listen to.


but seriously enlighten me to the teachings of the Qur'ran I am honestly curious.

and don't tell me to read it!

[Arty]

I hate the humanistic way of idolizing "people"

Other than their economic value they are worthless :D:D:D:D

[Owenotto]

@papfles
I don't know anything of this song and the game. By offensive means that perhaps the game contains explicit violence and gore as a game nowadays. If this is the case, thus it's like an indirect offence, using one or two verses to soundtrack a grosteque game is a subtle analogy that Islam is identical with violence.
Beside, we muslim have a strong thought that Qur'an is sacred, even we are prohibited to hold it with left hand.

[Karin<3]

@papfles
I don't know anything of this song and the game. By offensive means that perhaps the game contains explicit violence and gore as a game nowadays. If this is the case, thus it's like an indirect offence, using one or two verses to soundtrack a grosteque game is a subtle analogy that Islam is identical with violence.
Beside, we muslim have a strong thought that Qur'an is sacred, even we are prohibited to hold it with left hand.

>LBP
>violence

https://webspace.utexas.edu/warnerwt/picard-facepalm.jpg

[Tatsujin]

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Tarkus/FacePalm.jpg
http://www.meikathon.net/roflmao/facepalm4.jpg

[partlink1]

but seriously enlighten me to the teachings of the Qur'ran I am honestly curious.

and don't tell me to read it!
:welcome::welcome::welcome::welcome:

[Owenotto]

ok partlink, i'll write a composition... but don't expect a great one because i'm not an expert...

[KageNaruto]

ok partlink, i'll write a composition... but don't expect a great one because i'm not an expert...

Why do you follow it so if you're not well-educated about it...?

And LBP is not violent by any means... so there is absolutely NO reason for the song being banned from use within the game.

[Katzyn]

Why do you follow it so if you're not well-educated about it...?

And LBP is not violent by any means... so there is absolutely NO reason for the song being banned from use within the game.

I'm wondering if he meant he wasn't sure he could WRITE it. Knowing about something, and writing about that same something, in a way that makes sense, when this kind of topic is so deep, can be very difficult, if you ask me. But I've always had trouble stating exactly what I mean, in a way people can fully understand (especially when I speak; I get words mixed up, which sometimes gives it a different meaning than I intended, ect).

But if he -did- mean that as "I don't understand it that well", then...yeah. Kinda silly.

[Owenotto]

Lol, just notice i had the same trouble.... Beside i need to quote some of ayats Qur'an and digging it up is the hardest part.......

[papfles]

@ owen: The game is about jumping around like mario and creating your own levels with it. The most harmful thing you can do is hit another character around the head just for the fun of it ^^

This is what I mean with "protect the religion when perhaps it might be better to revolt against religious people within your own religion that are messing it up for the entire religion".

[Karin<3]

Lol, just notice i had the same trouble.... Beside i need to quote some of ayats Qur'an and digging it up is the hardest part.......

You sure the muslim community is alright with ur sig and ava ?

[partlink1]

You sure the muslim community is alright with ur sig and ava ?
from my understanding it's only some middle east countries that have a problem with woman showing some skin. and they are mostly totalitarian countries from my understanding

[Owenotto]

You sure the muslim community is alright with ur sig and ava ?
No, it's prohibited.........

[Arty]

from my understanding it's only some middle east countries that have a problem with woman showing some skin. and they are mostly totalitarian countries from my understanding

You'd think so but you would be wrong.

[partlink1]

You'd think so but you would be wrong.
oh,

Owenotto at least a link to Muslim beliefs and discipline's please

[estranged]

here you go partlink (http://www.google.com)

[Named]

Islam is nonsense.

Christianity is nonsense.

I've barely discussed the topic of religion in all the time i've been gone from Chaos. Not because this was the only forum in which I spoke of such things but because I quit the arena of debate in its entirety.
When a person lacks the fundamental ability to grasp reason - no amount of reason can get through to them.

How about we discuss the reasons for discussing religion? lol

[Katzyn]

How about we discuss the reasons for discussing religion? lol

To exchange ideas? =D

Or, in some people's cases, to discount and disprove others' beliefs.

[Named]

For what purpose does that serve?
It seems discounting other's beliefs is not nearly as important as validating one's own. It's a stroking of ego.

I feel the most important reason for openly and honestly discussing religion is putting it to death.
Teaching our children how to think; they will do the rest.

No more senseless division of humanity =)

[Erotique]

Mankind are destined to be divided, with or without religion...

It's in our blood, and in our nature. We're no different than the animals when we're stripped bare.

[KageNaruto]

It's in our blood, and in our nature. We're no different than the animals when we're stripped bare.

Humans are animals.

And because of the fact that we "surpassed them", it makes us soooooo much worse when we're not even stripped down.

[Named]

Mankind are destined to be divided, with or without religion...

It's in our blood, and in our nature. We're no different than the animals when we're stripped bare.

What on Earth are you basing this on? Historically the only thing dividing us has been intellectual notions; whimsical beliefs and IDEAS. Be that desire for power and land or because one faction of people believe another to worship the wrong imaginary friend. It is not biological at all, in fact it is contrary to our biological imperative as it goes against what directed our development into being social creatures. You see the only thing that kept us alive long enough to advance our intelligence was our SOCIAL STRUCTURES. The fact that unlike other groups of mammals we supported one another in a far more in depth and structured way.
If you study anthropology you'd be aware that it was living in tight communities that kept us alive against all odds, and it was the need to communicate that encouraged our minds to grasp LANGUAGE, enabling us to eventually share ideas which in turn lead to our intelligence taking shape and form.
If you believe we are intrinsically opposed to getting along with one another then i'm afraid you have no understanding of our origins as a species.

Our stupid ideas - our gross assumptions as to the nature of things beyond our physical perception - these are what divides us and it is what destroys us.

Fundamentally it is ego that divides us. Our ego is invested in many things. Maintaining an image of power or wealth or well-knowing. Religions and social classes - all these things serve an individual's ego.
The idea that we are separate from our surroundings. The idea that we can be more important than the person standing next to us, despite the fact that both persons are forces intertwined and entirely dependent on their surroundings - their environment.
Living naturally, humans have no reasons to be DIVIDED. It's only when one human gets the idea that he is better than another that he wishes to live away and lead a tribe or cult or army and impose his stupid idea on everyone who's not already following it.
That's an activity of ego, you see? Without our egos, how is it you're so convinced we'd still be warring each other?

Your opinion appears to be based on nothing but an ignorant and baselessly negative view of humanity.

Humans are animals.

And because of the fact that we "surpassed them", it makes us soooooo much worse when we're not even stripped down.

We have not surpassed animals.
The only quality that has us convinced we've surpassed other animals is the solitary quality that separates us from them. It's self-justifying.
"I'm self-aware. Those things don't appear to be... Well self-awareness must clearly make me superior."

What makes self-awareness so great? Nothing; we just like to pat ourselves on the back. Leading me back to the 'ego' thing. It serves no purpose other than those purposes it creates.
And where do those purposes come from? From the ego. lol.
We win all the competitions we've created for ourselves. There's no outside, objective force valuing Intelligence and Self-awareness.

The universe does not value intelligence. Only intelligent creatures value intelligence. Of course?

[Lukasz]

We have not surpassed animals.
The only quality that has us convinced we've surpassed other animals is the solitary quality that separates us from them. It's self-justifying.
"I'm self-aware. Those things don't appear to be... Well self-awareness must clearly make me superior."

What makes self-awareness so great? Nothing; we just like to pat ourselves on the back. Leading me back to the 'ego' thing. It serves no purpose other than those purposes it creates.
And where do those purposes come from? From the ego. lol.
We win all the competitions we've created for ourselves. There's no outside, objective force valuing Intelligence and Self-awareness.

The universe does not value intelligence. Only intelligent creatures value intelligence. Of course?

sup named. hows life?

On topic (kinda)

Animals are govern by instinct. We are not. That is enough to make us great creatures.
Why I think so? Because universe does value intelligence and self-awareness.

Self-awareness, ability to think gave us power of control, in the beginning only our surroundings, today whole planet. We move rivers, rise and destroy mountains, create and burn forests and only the greatest powers like earthquakes and tsunamis are still beyond our control.
With time and a bit luck even universe will be bend by our will.

That makes us great (whether good great or bad is different topic)

[Named]

sup named. hows life?

On topic (kinda)

Animals are govern by instinct. We are not. That is enough to make us great creatures.
Why I think so? Because universe does value intelligence and self-awareness.

Self-awareness, ability to think gave us power of control, in the beginning only our surroundings, today whole planet. We move rivers, rise and destroy mountains, create and burn forests and only the greatest powers like earthquakes and tsunamis are still beyond our control.
With time and a bit luck even universe will be bend by our will.

That makes us great (whether good great or bad is different topic)

You don't believe humans are governed by instinct? How many people, logically, think casual sex is a GOOD idea? How many people, logically and intellectually think sitting at a computer for 10 hours a day or eating foods with no nutritional value is a GOOD IDEA.
My friend, humans are entirely governed by instinct and whim and desire.
Intelligence merely trails behind it all.

Regardless, everything you've said - the ability to move rivers and mountains and whatnot - how is any of that a good thing?
How is power a good thing? How is control a good thing?

So far all of our attempts to control our environment have failed miserably. Whether obviously seen or not the ramifications are severe and have corrupted our world and our worldview.

Explain why control and obtaining power are good things, please, it interests me to hear such an opinion.

Also hello =) It's been a while.

[Lukasz]

You don't believe humans are governed by instinct? How many people, logically, think casual sex is a GOOD idea? How many people, logically and intellectually think sitting at a computer for 10 hours a day or eating foods with no nutritional value is a GOOD IDEA.
My friend, humans are entirely governed by instinct and whim and desire.
Intelligence merely trails behind it all.
What you mentioned is not instinct. It is choice. You can choose whether you want to have sex casually or to eat fast foods. But lion killing cubs because they are not his has no choice. It is an instinct which he has to follow.
we humans are not bound by it. we have a choice


Regardless, everything you've said - the ability to move rivers and mountains and whatnot - how is any of that a good thing?
How is power a good thing? How is control a good thing?

So far all of our attempts to control our environment have failed miserably. Whether obviously seen or not the ramifications are severe and have corrupted our world and our worldview.

Explain why control and obtaining power are good things, please, it interests me to hear such an opinion.

How are they bad? Only how you use it matters. Reversing Chicago's river gave safe shelter for millions of people. Control over fire gave us warmth and safety during long winter nights. Diseases are still a powerful force but not as strong as in the past.
Power itself is neither good or bad.

[Named]

Because it is choice does not mean it is not instinct.
Since when are the two opposing things? One feels compelled to act in such a way, instinctively, and so he chooses to give that whim action by doing whatever it is.
The presence of intelligence does not remove instinct from governing our actions it merely assists it; often acts in accordances with it.

'Choice' is a notion we have created, with our intelligence. Again, the simple fact that we are self aware and able to give names to the things we do and categorise different behaviours does not mean they are beyond the realm of instinct.

Instinct drives us to wake up in the morning - to seek food and to ensure survival on a day to day basis.

I agree that power is neither good or bad. I brought up that question because you presented power as being good. You argued its presence in our inventory as a reason for thinking we are elevated above other animals. But since you now agree that it is neither good or bad it can hardly be argued as a factor of valuation.

[Arty]

What do you mean by "divide"?

I don't really understand this "topic"... It seems to have turned from religion to some sort of cosmology?

Fundamentaly ego has nothing todo with the complex you are glueing it to , what dividing are you talking about? That we do not agree with eachother? Ego , ourselfs and the fact that even after all this time , every single one of us in unique.

We act based on our own benefits so yes ofcourse we will clash with eachother.

That's an activity of ego, you see? Without our egos, how is it you're so convinced we'd still be warring each other?


Without our egos we would not be able to define ourselfs as individuals.

Honestly , the posts hit me like wall of texts but no content...

The universe does not value intelligence.

And bananas don't bid you farwell when you eat them. This isnt an argument -

[Named]

What do you mean by "divide"?

I don't really understand this "topic"... It seems to have turned from religion to some sort of cosmology?

Fundamentaly ego has nothing todo with the complex you are glueing it to , what dividing are you talking about? That we do not agree with eachother? Ego , ourselfs and the fact that even after all this time , every single one of us in unique.

We act based on our own benefits so yes ofcourse we will clash with eachother.



Without our egos we would not be able to define ourselfs as individuals.

Honestly , the posts hit me like wall of texts but no content...



And bananas don't bid you farwell when you eat them. This isnt an argument -

We are discussing a discernable influence religion has on humanity. What is it you do not understand about that?
I think you are misunderstanding the definition of ego, as it is popularly deployed in our language in reference to one having too much of it, but what ego means in most philosophy (particularly Eastern - Taoism, Buddhism and even Confucianism) is a word to describe the illusion we have created (of self) and what we so adamantly dress all of life in and for. We believe ourselves to be separate from our surroundings and that is simply not true. All things are interconnected; and our personalities, too, are a culmination of all of our life's experiences including every event and every person that has affected you for better or worse.
A person is only a person in the 'context' of his or her environment, so why is it we maintain we are so individual?

There is not an atom in your body that has not been forged in the furness of the Sun. ALL THINGS ARE INTERCONNECTED. 'Self' is a malignant condition according to many Eastern philosophies.
Such proposals cause conflict in me because I see their meaning and I struggle to break away from the poor habits so strongly impressed upon me.

It is by enforcing this idea of separateness upon our perception and catering to it that such flaws of character emerge. If it were not for this satisfying of ego there would not be greed, there would not be a notion of superiority and therefore there would be no contention of belief.

Think about what it is people argue for when defending faith. Their God? No, they argue for themselves. They refuse to reevaluate an assumption they've decided is monarch to all other experiences. Be that assumption that "There is a God" or the assumption that "I'm independent from all the things my existence relies on"

How can ego not be the crux of all contention? There cannot be theft in a world without possessions and their cannot be insult in a world without a proud and haughty sense of one's self being more important than anyone else.

Ego is an illusion and a dangerous one.

You've ignored