Is Naruto and Yondaime the same person?

[Juuken]

Is Naruto and Yondaime the same person?

Warning: This article will take you a significant amount of time to complete so do read this when you have at least 15-30 minutes of free time.

Before anything else... Good day to everyone. Please don't raise those eyebrows just yet.(Believe me you'll be doing that a lot while reading the whole thing) I know we've all been seeking desperately answers to the questions regarding the relationship between the 4th and Naruto. While some people would just accept the simple "The 4th died and sealed the Kyuubi inside an orphan baby named Naruto" given by the anime, the avid/obsessed Naruto fan wouldn't go for just that. Looking closely, the two really have so many similarities. Just their mere physical appearance is close to identical, so there must be some connection.

Many have formulated theories or just merely guess this alleged mysterious connection. I have come across some people saying "Naruto is Kyuubi”, "Yondaime is Kyuubi" and many more which are very unlikely and are presented with minimum or no basis at all. Although there is one, by far the most popular and most likely to be, theory which is "Yondaime is Naruto's father". But this too has not been proven and contain small holes itself as well.(Supporters of this theory please don't crucify me for this.)

I therefore would like to introduce a new theory which is "Naruto and Yondaime is the same person" (Wait! Don't smash your monitor just yet, let me explain myself first.)

The Story

This is what I think happened. Somebody saw the Kyuubi heading towards the village and reported it to the 3rd. The 3rd immediately deciding it was a very big threat for everyone, he ordered most of their shinobis to evacuate all civilians and genins to the rock faces. (Check below for the possible reasons why the 4th is late.) The 3rd then with a few troops remained and tried to hold off the Kyuubi until the 4th arrives. (Remember the special kunai that the 4th gave Kakashi?) After a few hours of chaos and many shinobis killed(including Iruka's parents), the 4th finally arrived.

Seeing how powerful the Kyuubi is the 4th decided that the only way to defeat the Kyuubi is to use the "Shiki Fujin jutsu"(not sure of name) and seal the Kyuubi inside his body. So he ordered everyone to stay away from the battlefield. Yet the 3rd refused to go and said instead that he will perform the jutsu. This is because the 3rd is already old and the 4th is more capable of protecting the village from future attacks. But the 4th thought that the 3rd may already be too weak to pull out the soul of the Kyuubi since he's been fighting the Kyuubi longer than him. So the 4th decided to use his lightning fast taijutsu to knock the 3rd to sleep. Catching the 3rd by surprise the 4th succeeded in just one shot. After putting the 3rd in a safe spot the 4th then started the jutsu. With the help of Gamabunta, Yondaime succeeded in grabbing the Kyuubi’s soul by the back of its neck. The Kyuubi resisted but couldn’t manage to shake the 4th off. Slowly the Kyuubi weakened as more of its soul is dragged into the seal. All of a sudden the Kyuubi let out a powerful outburst of chakra, destroying everything around it, as a desperate attempt to free itself. The 4th was caught by surprise and has taken the full force of the impact but due to his strong will to save the village, he refused to let go. The Kyuubi was weakened by that sudden outburst and fell to the ground.

The 4th gave a sigh of relief but knew it is not over until the Kyuubi is completely sealed inside. As the 4th was about to faint due to fatigue and excessive use of chakra he finally pulled all of the Kyuubi’s soul. The 4th then shouted “Fuuin!” to finish the jutsu. Now that the jutsu is done, it is now time to pay for the God of Death’s service with his soul. But as the GD was about to absorb the 4th’s soul it recognized that an orange chakra was also being sucked in. The chakra was very powerful and it is resisting to be sucked in.

By this time the 3rd had already awoken from his sleep only to see the 4th down on the ground in terrible pain. The 4th’s soul is being pulled by two ferocious beasts that it almost tore apart. The Kyuubi was once again desperately trying to escape the wretched seal that would put it to damnation forever. However the Kyuubi’s soul is already detached from its solid chakra body. It is now bound with the 4th’s soul. The Kyuubi tried to pull harder to escape, putting the 4th in an even more excruciating pain. The 3rd could only watch as the 4th crunches his body and scream as if he was begging for his death. The 3rd could only hope that death would come and free him of this fate worse than death. Still the Kyuubi resisted to succumb to its fate but the payment must be made and it is a soul that the GD wants. Despite the effort of the Kyuubi they were still being drawn to the ominous mouth of the GD. The 3rd just stood there watching. He feels as if something was preventing him to do anything. Then something unusual happened…

The orange chakra was now fusing with the 4th’s soul to gain more power. Little by little the it became apparent what was really going on. The 4th’s soul and the orange chakra was transforming into a somewhat smaller version of the Kyuubi. The GD can sense the immense power being formed as each of the tails appears. But the transformation is also taking effect with the 4th’s body with the appearance of whisker-like linings on his face. The GD knew there was too much chakra in it to take so it reluctantly decided that it was time to let go. For the first time the GD was not able to claim its prize. Just as soon as the ninth tail takes shape, the GD cut loose the 4th’s soul from its binding. And with all the remaining strength of the GD it activated the seal once again. After that the GD then went back to the world it came from…

This is the part of the story where the 4th gets turned into a baby. But since there is no hard evidence that such a jutsu was used or even exists, this part is based entirely in my speculation that there is such a jutsu. (Check below for the reason why I think there is such a jutsu.) I’ve come up with a few scenarios for this one so read whichever you like among them:

[Juuken]

- Since the soul was released it returned to its body together with the enormous amount of chakra that was formed during the fusion. As a result the body of the 4th was entirely covered with the huge amount of chakra. The orange chakra that covered the 4th’s body seems to have rejuvenating abilities. The chakra healed all the wounds of the 4th’s body as if he was never in battle. Because of the reaction the orange chakra was now uncontrollable since the Kyuubi is sealed and the 4th is now knocked out. The orange chakra is now doing more than just healing the wounds as it gradually dissipates. It is now restoring the body to its previous form. Slowly the 4th’s limbs began to shrink. Until at last the chakra completely dissipated and there, where the 4th was, lays a baby. At first the 3rd was completely blown away by what he just saw but soon came back to his senses. He went close to the baby and there it was, on the baby’s stomach, the seal that imprisoned the Kyuubi. As hokage he quickly realized that the 4th is in grave danger in his current situation…

- The soul was now free and it returned to its body. The orange chakra was now completely sealed and is quickly being drawn into the seal. The GD was not able to claim the 4th’s seal but now it is heaven that is beckoning the 4th to come. The 4th was now dying. The 3rd who just came back to his senses quickly came close to the 4th but stopped a few feet away. He was still hesitant to come any closer since the orange chakra has not yet been dissipated completely. He can see the 4th laying beaten and exhausted down to his soul. Even the orange chakra can’t help him now. Suddenly the thought of the danger that lies ahead of them came to the 3rd’s mind. Because of the death of the 4th Konoha’s military force have been greatly diminished, considering they’re left with just one hokage and the number of shinobis killed during the attack. So the 3rd decided to use a secret forbidden jutsu that might save the 4th’s life. The jutsu will turn the 4th’s body into a baby and leaving none on his memory. He was still unsure whether the jutsu will save the 4th’s life or not and he was also worried on what effects it could bring to the sealed beast. He knew that he let the 4th die they will be left guarding the body from anyone who tries to unseal the Kyuubi. (Akatsuki) But deciding that who’d better protect the Kyuubi than the man who defeated it himself, the 3rd decided to go on and gamble with the jutsu.(Hehe, I wanted to name the jutsu myself but I can’t think of any.) With the jutsu done, the 3rd awaits its outcome. At first there was none happening then the body suddenly floated. Blinding lights of various colors and gentle winds surround the body. Then there was a huge explosion of blinding light. After the lights cleared up the 3rd found a baby lying in the same spot where the 4th was. Everything was kept in secret for the protection of the 4th…

- The third scenario is the same as the second only with a different shinobi performing the jutsu. My guess would be an S-class medical ninja that posses a bloodline limit jutsu that can turn a person to a baby in exchange for their own life. Why a medical ninja? Medical ninjas specialize in life saving jutsus. Now I have a very intriguing question here. Could it be Kabuto’s parents? That could explain his expertise in medical jutsus and why Orochimaru took him in. Hmm… Maybe I’m just putting some colorful flavor on Kabuto’s identity. (Personally I think Kabuto’s way cool than Naruto) Of course it was already stated in the anime that he was taken care of by the head of medical ninjas in Konoha and Orochimaru wants him to perform his experiments. Still Kabuto’s past or where he came from and why he was abandoned is still a mystery. Or could it be Shizunes? (-_^)

Now here’s the part where the story joins together again.

The events that happened were kept in highest possible secrecy. It was only known to the 3rd and the most trustworthy shinobis of the highest order. This is so someone can still protect the baby even if something happens to the 3rd. The 3rd also ordered to spread the info that the 4th sacrificed his life to seal the Kyuubi inside a baby named Naruto. He wanted the village to recognize Naruto as a hero because the 4th used him as a tool to save the village but what happened was not what he expected. Naruto was feared, hated, treated as a menace and was outcast because he has the Kyuubi. And you know the rest.



The "I" Part
(skip if you don't want to know more about me)

Uhm...well before that I'd like to take this opportunity to tell you more about myself, maybe you'll learn something as to why I've chosen this shocking if not delirious idea. I am Juuken(not real name of course) a junior member of this forums. I'm 20 yrs. old and is a graduate of a 2 yr. course in college for almost a year now. I am currently unemployed(T_T) that's why I have time to spend on writing something like this. I don't belong to a rich family, in fact we can even be considered to be poor. I have an old computer at home without an internet connection and is currently broken(T_T). I came to know Naruto when I was in 4th yr high school; it was then that Naruto aired on our national TV. I've also borrowed VCD's from my friends just to be ahead of the story. I've started to formulate this idea when Jiraiya noticed the similarities between Naruto and Yondaime. Ever since that day, I’ve already thought of ways to prove this. Then the fillers started...the story went off the main plot and well the Naruto craze went down. I concentrated on my studies after that. After 2 yrs my friend showed me the manga and once again my obsession with Naruto came alive. I started to download the manga chapters starting from the Kakashi gaiden. Up to now I've been following the manga and hoping that my friends could download the Shipuuden series which came out recently.

Truth is the idea that Yondaime is Naruto's father until I stumbled upon these forums like three weeks ago. Hilarious but true I’m afraid. This was also the time that I started to think about those tiny circumstances which I think gives hint to Naruto’s connection with the 4th. Then I thought I should voice out my opinion on this. Thus, this guide is created. Okay now that’s over on to the topic.

Possible reasons why Yondaime is late[/B]

- He could be guarding the borders of the country. Remember that these were troubled times when shinobi countries engage in skirmishes.
- He could be trailing Akatsuki with Jiraiya[/B], after all Jiraiya’s[/B] his mentor and He was Hokage.
- He could be after Orochimaru[/B] with Jiraiya[/B] as well. Could prove why Jiraiya[/B] wasn’t able to help as well.
- Or he could be in the Hidden Sand village when he learned that they sacrificed a life to Shukaku[/B]. And the baby is soon to be born.

I believe all this happened in the same timeframe. I may be wrong but you have to admit this are all circumstances of the highest priority.

Why I believe that my proposed jutsu exists

- I based it on the fact that life manipulating jutsus exist. My examples would be Tsunade’s[/B] Phoenix Rebirth jutsu that keeps her young looking, Orochimaru’s jutsu for transferring from one body to another, Akamichi clan’s jutsu that can make their body enlarge and shrink its size. Not to mention the Akatsuki members’ jutsus. The point is that manipulate life exists whether forbidden or not. So why not an extraordinary life manipulating jutsu. (Don’t loose your head now you’re almost done.)

[Juuken]

Reasons why I chose this idea

I have come up with these few arguments by watching and mostly recalling circumstances in the anime on which I believe gives hint on Naruto’s real identity. And by personal judgment, I’ve managed to cover up some holes (if not to create more holes). And of course I’ve also used my imagination for those facts that are yet to be unfold to connect pieces of facts already at hand. I also feel that I have to say that most of my observation came from the subbed anime and manga of the shipuuden chapter. With that said on to the basis of my idea:

First is the jutsu “Fuuinjutsu Shiki Fujin” (not sure of the name) which the 3rd used to seal the soul of the 1st and 2nd hokage in the battle with Orochimaru. He mentioned that it was the same jutsu that the 4th used to seal the Kyuubi inside Naruto. I do have a lot of things to point out in this one but I’ll try to keep it simple. Here they are:

- First the obvious one, the seal. If it is the same jutsu the seal should have appeared on the 4th’s stomach and not on Naruto’s.
- Second is the ending handseal of the jutsu. Basing on other jutsus, a technique that puts a seal on anyone ends with the caster striking the part you want the seal to appear on. One of my examples would be the Hyuuga’s Juuken. It doesn’t really put a marking on anyone but it seals the chakra point struck by their attacks. Another would be Orochimaru’s biting Anko and Sasuke for the cursed seal. Orochimaru’s disrupting Naruto’s seal by adding more seals on his stomach and Jiraiya’s fixing Naruto’s seal after Orochimaru disrupted it. Now the technique the 3rd used does not end in him striking his stomach to make the seal appear on it. Therefore I think that it is like Tsunade’s Phoenix Rebirth jutsu that affects only the caster. That’s why I think the possibility of the 4th putting it on Naruto is out.
- Third is that to infuse someone with a chakra beast there is a need for huge amounts of chakra.(probably a greater amount of chakra to overpower that of the chakra beast) My sample would be the Akatsuki. They need all of their members to extract and infuse one of them with those chakra beasts. Even though the 4th is considered to be one of the strongest ninja that ever lived, I don’t think his chakra could amount against those of all the Akatsuki. He is alone after all.
- I also have to note that I don’t believe that the technique that sealed Shukaku in Gaara is the same as the one that sealed Kyuubi in Naruto as I’ve read somewhere in these forums. I believe that the anime used the word “offered” or “sacrificed” which I think denotes authority on the receiver. I mean that it gives the Shukaku the option to accept or reject whatever it is being given to him. And also, Do you think the rampaging Kyuubi would accept a child offering at that time?

The second is the scene depicting only the 4th, Gamabunta and the Kyuubi to be present in the battlefield. I think this was already stated by somebody in these forums.(I’ll try to find it again sometime) Although unlike him I’ll be explaining this one. Konoha’s SOP(Standar Operating Procedure) when under attack was: First try to eliminate the threat with the readily available forces at the time. If the threat proves to be greater than they can handle; move to the second. Second was to evacuate all women and children to the rock faces. After that on to the third. Third is to eliminate the threat using all of the forces of the village. When the Kyuubi attacked, it is very obvious that they have to immediately move to the second phase. This is due to the fact that even the 3rd was already engaging the Kyuubi. So why should there be a baby laying around the battlefield?

The third is the summon beast,Gamabunta. Of all the summon beast frog that Naruto can summon he had succeeded in summoning the Gamabunta, the frog boss, which is also the 4th’s summon beast. Jiraiya can summon other frog beasts but why was Naruto able summon Gamabunta first. I think Gamabunta somehow recognized Naruto’s chakra to be that of the 4th’s so he came out. Remember that each chakra is different from the other like a fingerprint there can be no other like yours.

The fourth is the jutsu, Rasengan. While Jiraiya was training Naruto to use the rasengan he did state that the 4th took years to master this jutsu whilst Naruto merely took weeks. Therefore I’m guessing that his chakra system must already be used to this jutsu already but not his chakra control. It could be because of the memory loss, which explains the necessity for the use of bunshins.

The following I consider minor arguments:

If the 4th really had a lover shouldn’t there be rumors about it already. The Ichiraku ramen can be a good place for picking up gossips. And doesn’t the woman have other relatives to claim Naruto.

Naruto’s great love for the village and even towards his enemies despite the fact he’s been maltreated by the village. A very hokage like characteristic.

And of course Naruto looking like a mini version of the 4th.

Ending Remarks

I hope you enjoyed reading this article. Besides the headache and the frequent raising of those eyebrows, I hope it has been of some value.I don’t claim that everything I’ve said here are correct. I don’t even have the leisure of reviewing all I’ve said here coz’ I don’t all of the episodes with me.(My computer is broken you know) And besides very little clue was given about this topic. Okay enough defending myself. All I have to say is that the story is still going on so pretty much everyone can still think of their own idea about this relationship. Who know what will happen next? It’s really all up to guys there at Shonen jump. But for now all we can do is speculate. I want to thank everyone that read this article and feel free to PM with those sweet words of praises. Hate mails are forbidden.(Like you guys will listen) Anyway Thank You once again til’ next post.

[B0ukun]

I've read a good deal, I'll say a ew remarks.

1)Hokage doesn't leave the village to go on missions, thats like bush grabbing a gun and heading to Iraq

2)The time period doesn't state that Kyubi attacked during the war, and of Yondaime's own admission, he was still a jounin during the shinobi wars.

3)The safest way to keep anyone from getting Kyubi at that point would have been to let Yondaime die. If he dies kyubi does.

4)it states in the first chapter that Kyubi was sealed in a new born baby.

5)As far as Shiki Fuujin, thats something I'd like to ask Kishi myself. However Sandaime said that the fourths sealing the Kyubi inside of Naruto was so that Naruto would be seen as a hero.

6)Gamabunta is the Toad Boss, if you make a contract with the Toads then you have the ability to summon Gamabunta, whether he will fight for you is a different story.

7)It wasn't that it took the fourth years to learn the jutsu, it took him years to create the jutsu, just like it too Naruto years to create his RasenShuriken. I'm sure it didn't take kakashi 3 years to learn rasengan. He knew Rasengan first and created Chidori at what...12

Well other than those things i came upon, its good to see someone thinking about what the read. Good stuff.

[iCeNinja]

I like your ideas on how the 4th was changed into a baby and stuff. I have to agree that it seems possible since the caster of the sealing technique has to offer his soul in return for using the technique.

Heres something I thought of while reading this stuff. When Orochimaru was fighting the third, the third seald the 1st and 2nd hokages in him and they fell and revealed that Orochimaru used his own students. Well when he sealed Orochimarus arms with the technique Orochimaru still had his arms and everything they just werent at all useable. Well if the fourth used this sealing technique only his soul would be taken not his body. So my point is, What happened to the 4ths body after the fight with kyuubi? And your theory of the 4th being naruto would kind of explain that

[Narutowned]

Reasons why I chose this idea Third is that to infuse someone with a chakra beast there is a need for huge amounts of chakra.(probably a greater amount of chakra to overpower that of the chakra beast) My sample would be the Akatsuki. They need all of their members to extract and infuse one of them with those chakra beasts. Even though the 4th is considered to be one of the strongest ninja that ever lived, I don’t think his chakra could amount against those of all the Akatsuki. He is alone after all.

The Kyuubi has infinite amounts of chakra. So I don't think it would matter even if all the shinobi in the entire narutoverse had helped=P

[anantha92]

Its not infinite, how can somethings stamina/chakra be infiite. People just say that cos the kyuubi Has a NEAr infinite.

[Pryce]

write another fanfic plz

[the killer Uchiha]

Heres something I thought of while reading this stuff. When Orochimaru was fighting the third, the third seald the 1st and 2nd hokages in him and they fell and revealed that Orochimaru used his own students. Well when he sealed Orochimarus arms with the technique Orochimaru still had his arms and everything they just werent at all useable. Well if the fourth used this sealing technique only his soul would be taken not his body. So my point is, What happened to the 4ths body after the fight with kyuubi? And your theory of the 4th being naruto would kind of explain that

The 4th being the leader of Akatsuki and Naruto being his son would also explain that.

[BBRS]

Everybody knows that edward elric was the one who created naruto. He transmutaded the kyuubi and the 4:th and made naruto...

:)

So the 4th decided to use his lightning fast taijutsu to knock the 3rd to sleep.

And why the hell would he do that?! The 3:rd was pretty much the same age jiraya is now when that happend! But not to further comment, mr. B0ukun already busted your theory pretty hard... :)

[ArenaNinja]

write another fanfic plz

I ditto this guy. (Just 'ditto' won't work for a reply, apparently...)

[Diablosssssssss]

Great effort, and most importantly, it actually makes sense. Great job, guess we'll just wait for the Naruto producers to confirm or deny.

[Chidongan]

very good theory, instead of those noobs who just say "zomg naruto is yondaime's son!!11!one!" you actually thought your theory through. it does make sense in some part. but i just don't believe it to be true. good job though.

kudos. ^^

[tekashika]

to all those hard criticizers... it's hard to come up with a theory like this... you can put your comments and criticisms... but please don't treat it like you're cursing his theory...

Anyway, thumbs up with this theory,,, i have already mentioned in the forums some of your points but you really completed and put an effort to finish your's... good job...

Another thing... i was always thinking about naruto's seal in his stomach... but can't come up with the right theory... hehe... didn't think that the answer would be that simple...

GOOD JOB with the theory... love the read... I can rate this next best behind the Tengu theory.... I'm so excited when I think of it that in the near future... it may be revealed that naruto was the fourth.... weeeeeeee....

A ***** five star rate for this one... hehe...

[Recoom]

I think Kishi would have focused more on the life of the fourth if this was the case. Plus, the young Naruto doesn't look like the young 4th. So while it does fix a few plot holes (being the sealing technique, and the lack of parents), it's not really more plausible than the 4th being the father.

[KageNaruto]

I think Kishi would have focused more on the life of the fourth if this was the case. Plus, the young Naruto doesn't look like the young 4th. So while it does fix a few plot holes (being the sealing technique, and the lack of parents), it's not really more plausible than the 4th being the father.

i am not supporting or disproving this theory but,

of course they arent going to look exactly the same. style their hair differently, eat different amounts, excersize differently, even clones shouldnt neccesarily look identical to the original.

and there was no reason to focus on the life of the 4th so far.

[Recoom]

Well, then it seems even more out of place if some of the things I said aren't the case. There's no hints to it. There's no reason for it. There's only a few errors that might be explained by it.

It just seems like such a huge event to justify such a little thing. I want it to be true, but I'm not convinced in the slightest.

You might as well say the AL is naruto's father or something. That'd be great, but so out of left field as to piss a lot of people off.

[Narusukashi]

This could all be explained nearing the ending of Naruto. I really like this theory however. It explains a few questions, and it's the only *GOOD* theory I've seen so far regarding the relation between the 4th and Naruto ( Unless someone can link me to another theory that is better than this one ).

@ Recoom: It could be that Kishi wants to keep the relationship between the two a secret until the end of the series. I mean, if I were to make a series, I would also leave the main characters past a mystery as well, just to keep fans interested and stick to the series.

[10sarg]

the basics of the theory are ok, but you tend to over complicate it with your descriptions. if its true then do you class naruto as an individual, totally new person? or just as the 4th with the kyuubi in him?

the only arguments that stands out is when jirayia apologises to the 4th when throwing naruto off a cliff, and when oro tries to summon the extra coffin when fighting the 3rd.

[tri_0217]

I couldn't agree more to Juuken's theory. The seal that the 4th used in sealing the kyuubi is the same as the seal the 3rd used on orochimaru therefore you can only seal the soul of the victim(kyuubi in this event)w/n the body of the caster(4th). With this in mind, how can the baby naruto perform a seal at his age who didn't even know how to speak at that moment?

[10sarg]

the issue is though that the 4th made the jutsu so could invariably alter it to suit a situation. maybe as the kyuubi has so much chakra it cant be sealed in the death gods stomach (as sotmachs have a way of getting full) but can be put in a container, just like gaara's was originally in a kettle etc.

I wonder if the souls eventually get pooed out!

[tri_0217]

the issue is though that the 4th made the jutsu so could invariably alter it to suit a situation. maybe as the kyuubi has so much chakra it cant be sealed in the death gods stomach (as sotmachs have a way of getting full) but can be put in a container, just like gaara's was originally in a kettle etc.

I wonder if the souls eventually get pooed out!

So why didn't the 3rd used the same altered jutsu(if there is) and put orochimaru's soul on any object accessible there?
Why did he sacrificed his life in using that jutsu if there is such a jutsu that is more suitable to use (no deaths, no casualties)?

[Collateral]

So why didn't the 3rd used the same altered jutsu(if there is) and put orochimaru's soul on any object accessible there?
Why did he sacrificed his life in using that jutsu if there is such a jutsu that is more suitable to use (no deaths, no casualties)?

why should the 3rd seal the soul of the first and second in someones body? he just tried to beat them and he just tried to beat orochimaru but he didnt have enough strentgh left to do it AND the fourth also died (at least thats what post people think) the question is just was the kyubii to strong to be sealed in the death god stommach or did yondaime thought that he would be of greater use in the body of a shinobi

[tri_0217]

why should the 3rd seal the soul of the first and second in someones body? he just tried to beat them and he just tried to beat orochimaru but he didnt have enough strentgh left to do it AND the fourth also died (at least thats what post people think) the question is just was the kyubii to strong to be sealed in the death god stommach or did yondaime thought that he would be of greater use in the body of a shinobi

Well if the 3rd sealed orochimaru's soul on another object he would have succeeded in defeating him because the very reason that he didn't succeed is because of the damage that he receive from orochimaru because he is positioned face to face(literally) with him when he used the jutsu.

[Orlwick]

People continually say that the 4th sealed the kyuubi inside of a newborn baby, yet the description of the Death God Sealing Jutsu says the user seals his enemy within himself and gives their souls to the God of Death, locking them in an eternal struggle. Heres something my friends and I came up with.
Kyuubi is supposed to be immortal. You cant kill him, you can only seal him away. The God of Death is supposed to claim both souls. Since the God of Death is unable to claim kyuubis soul, and kyuubis soul is locked away inside of the 4th, then that would give good reason that the God of Death would be unable to claim the 4ths soul as well.
Another problem with Naruto being seperate from the 4th is the fact that you never see the 4th inside of Naruto. He talks to kyuubi throughout the manga...but the sealing jutsu locks both souls in an eternal struggle. So where is the 4th? If hes not inside Naruto...then where the hell is he unless Naruto himself is the 4th. The Death God couldnt have taken him because in doing so he would have taken kyuubi. See where I am going here?

[papfles]

I agree with some people here, this is one of the best theories I've seen about the narutoverse. Well thought of, inventive, trying to answer the questions.

Whether it's like this or not (boukun did manage to question some things), it's a very good effort.

if you have any thoughts about other parts of the narutoverse, feel free to post them here, I'd love to read them :-)

[Recoom]

This doesn't explain the fourth's outline in the Deathgod's stomach.

Nor the 3rd Coffin that Orochimaru summons.

Too much doubt. Way left field. I just don't think the series could be based on such a plot device.

[iCeNinja]

People continually say that the 4th sealed the kyuubi inside of a newborn baby, yet the description of the Death God Sealing Jutsu says the user seals his enemy within himself and gives their souls to the God of Death, locking them in an eternal struggle. Heres something my friends and I came up with.
Kyuubi is supposed to be immortal. You cant kill him, you can only seal him away. The God of Death is supposed to claim both souls. Since the God of Death is unable to claim kyuubis soul, and kyuubis soul is locked away inside of the 4th, then that would give good reason that the God of Death would be unable to claim the 4ths soul as well.
Another problem with Naruto being seperate from the 4th is the fact that you never see the 4th inside of Naruto. He talks to kyuubi throughout the manga...but the sealing jutsu locks both souls in an eternal struggle. So where is the 4th? If hes not inside Naruto...then where the hell is he unless Naruto himself is the 4th. The Death God couldnt have taken him because in doing so he would have taken kyuubi. See where I am going here?

Yeah it's possible that the kyuubi was too strong to be eaten by the death god

[10sarg]

So why didn't the 3rd used the same altered jutsu(if there is) and put orochimaru's soul on any object accessible there?
Why did he sacrificed his life in using that jutsu if there is such a jutsu that is more suitable to use (no deaths, no casualties)?

cos it could be the first time the 4th used the altered method, and then subsequently died and wasnt able to pass the technique on cos he's dead. Also y would the sealing of the kyuubi sould within the 4th's body make him a baby? it wouldnt thats just a shot in the dark. also if you say both are sealed in naruto then that means it was a totally different sealing technique than the death god jutsu as he still had to seal it in a baby at some point.

[tri_0217]

cos it could be the first time the 4th used the altered method, and then subsequently died and wasnt able to pass the technique on cos he's dead. Also y would the sealing of the kyuubi sould within the 4th's body make him a baby? it wouldnt thats just a shot in the dark. also if you say both are sealed in naruto then that means it was a totally different sealing technique than the death god jutsu as he still had to seal it in a baby at some point.

Well, the chakara of the kyuubi made naruto heal faster. There is a posibility that when the death god is about to take their soul, the power of the kyuubi was way too strong for the death god so the death god didn't complete the soul taking. And as a result, the chakra of the kyuubi (same as the chakra that made naruto heal faster) made the 4th a baby because the 4th can't control its power to regenerate.

[10sarg]

regenerate is different from , what the hell would you call that? rebirth,

[Recoom]

I figure that the jutsu seals the soul into whatever you do the seal on, and then the person that performed the seal goes to the death god's stomach.

Thats how the discrepancies can easily be explained. 4th in the stomach. 3rd. Orochimaru's arms.. etc.

[DonEmu]

precisely, if the 4th had put kyuubi in himself, kyuubi would have gone with him, afterall the payment is the sealers soul, not the sealee...

So 4th places the seal on naruto, and then gets devoured...

[10sarg]

which means he sealed kyuubi in naruto for a specific purpose. any ideas what that could be?

[Arty]

Your logic is rly flawed due to the "guessing" and "hole filling" but yea.. The orginal concept "Naruto = Yondaime" is rly not that far off i think :)

[Juuken]

Hello everyone. Finally, I was able to go online. I was very excited to see what your reactions were. So far, I’m very grateful for those feedbacks. Pretty much everyone stated that it was a good read. It makes my heart jump with joy and thank God that the time spent was worth it after all. Although there are still some doubts about this, it is actually what will keep this thread alive. So I would also like to express my gratitude to them. Somehow I managed to tickle those brain cells of theirs.

Now about those questions that were mentioned about my article, I’ll try to answer them now:

Hokages can engage in missions, too. Especially if they are lacking in military power and the mission is of a very high priority. If you can recall, the 3rd was also doing missions despite of his being Hokage. He was the one who lead the mission to expose Orochimaru. And there’s also the scene in that episode after the 3rd died where Konohamaru was remembering his old times with the 3rd. Konohamaru was stopping the 3rd to go to a mission. Also the 4th being the hokage does not have to worry about leaving the country because the 3rd was still in the village.

For the time your right it was not mentioned but does it matter? Countries are still competing with each other even after the war. Even after the war has ended tension is still up between countries so it is only right to guard their borders. After all they were fighting for more than 10 years. It could be during the wars or shortly after that. My proof would be the Kakashi gaiden. It was set in those times when countries engage in skirmishes. Back then Kakashi was about the same age as Naruto was then. So if the Kyuubi incident didn’t happen around that time Kakashi would have been much older.

Rasengan

Naruto did surprise everybody when they saw him using the technique the 4th used. Plus Jiraiya did commend the amazing progress of Naruto in using the rasengan. Also note that he trained without using Kakashi’s technique. That and the fact that he can use it over and over again unlike Sasuke’s chidori which he can use 2 to 3 times a day only(with 2-comma sharingan). The rasengan was much more powerful than the chidori wasn’t it? So I believe what Naruto did on mastering the jutsu was still extraordinary.

I also think that it is unfair to compare Naruto with Jiraiya, Kakashi or the 4th. Kakashi was a genius and has the sharingan. He could have copied the jutsu when he saw Naruto and sasuke fight at the hospital rooftop. The rasengan is not a bloodline limit jutsu it’s not even an elemental jutsu. So I think it can be copied by sharingan. I just don’t know why sasuke’s not using it; he already saw it multiple times with sharingan after all. For Jiraiya and the 4th well… they are geniuses and not just geniuses but legendary geniuses. I don’t think they’ll be called that if they don’t possess great skill. Naruto on the other hand is… young and less skilled. His genius barely made it through the academy.

Gamabunta

My point here was: why Naruto can only summon from the frog boss’ family. Even if he fails in the summoning jutsu he can still summon the frog boss’ sons. Jiraiya can summon those medium sized frogs, so why Naruto can’t summon those? And if Naruto has too much chakra why didn’t he summon that gigantic fire breathing frog.

New Born baby

Technically the 4th has been reborn. He was after all returned to his baby form and lost his memory. Plus this could be used to hide the truth about his identity. I don’t think they’ll tell that truth straightforwardly, much like Kabuto. If they were to hide Kabuto’s identity they will introduce him as an ally when he was actually a spy. These things add excitement to the story too.

Also the Kyuubi wont’ die if the 4th dies. The Akatsuki are capturing their prey dead. So if the chakra beast dies with the host then akatsuki would have captured their prey alive (Gaara and the Niibi)

Now regarding the regeneration and rebirth issue: I know it’s a long shot but it is the only thing I can think of to support this theory. Look back to Naruto’s fight with sasuke on the valley of the end, sasuke was able to put a hole in his shoulder. That orange chakra was able regenerate bones and flesh in its weakest form(only one tail present) so why would I limit it to just regenerating when all its nine tails are present. It is out of control after all.

I would also like to apologize to everyone that I cannot answer regularly. I only go online like 2-4 hours a week because of financial circumstances. So if anyone have thoughts on others opinion feel free to answer them for me. Of course I’m assuming that you’ve read the article. And for the overly descriptive writing it makes the read more exciting but long. Hence the warning in the beginning. Again thank you. Till next post.

[10sarg]

Hokages can engage in missions, too. Especially if they are lacking in military power and the mission is of a very high priority. If you can recall, the 3rd was also doing missions despite of his being Hokage. He was the one who lead the mission to expose Orochimaru. And there’s also the scene in that episode after the 3rd died where Konohamaru was remembering his old times with the 3rd. Konohamaru was stopping the 3rd to go to a mission. Also the 4th being the hokage does not have to worry about leaving the country because the 3rd was still in the village.

this is true but the 3rd and oro mission was within the city. Also when fighting someone labbeled sannin its my guess the usual ANBU just cant cut it so you need someone of equal (jirayia) and surpassing strength (3rd). As for the konohamaru we dont know if this was a diplomatic mission or investigatory or what kind of mission it was so this is just speculation.

My proof would be the Kakashi gaiden. It was set in those times when countries engage in skirmishes. Back then Kakashi was about the same age as Naruto was then. So if the Kyuubi incident didn’t happen around that time Kakashi would have been much older.

Im not sure what your getting at at this stage. kakashi gaiden happened before the 4th became the 4th so we dont know how soon or later from that moment that the 4th became hokage, then sealed the kyuubi. but i do agree it is very soon after this maybe a year or something.

Rasengan

Naruto did surprise everybody when they saw him using the technique the 4th used. Plus Jiraiya did commend the amazing progress of Naruto in using the rasengan. Also note that he trained without using Kakashi’s technique. That and the fact that he can use it over and over again unlike Sasuke’s chidori which he can use 2 to 3 times a day only(with 2-comma sharingan). The rasengan was much more powerful than the chidori wasn’t it? So I believe what Naruto did on mastering the jutsu was still extraordinary.



you've got to remember naruto even though he doesnt seem it is a natural genius. he doesnt have the book smarts but he's somehow able to feel his way to success, this combined with the fact he's a genius of hard work means its not that surprising he achieved it. but you got to also remember he only managed to achieve it properly when it mattered and he had to save tsunade's life with it. as it is with so many of his jutsu he only manages the goods when his or someone elses life depends on it. As for the amount of rasegans he can do lets not forget he's a big fat old chakra tanker.

Gamabunta

My point here was: why Naruto can only summon from the frog boss’ family. Even if he fails in the summoning jutsu he can still summon the frog boss’ sons. Jiraiya can summon those medium sized frogs, so why Naruto can’t summon those? And if Naruto has too much chakra why didn’t he summon that gigantic fire breathing frog.

ok this is simple naruto was taught how to summon by the frog hermit sannin and signed a contract with the toads. He could of equally signed a contract to summon any other summons but as his teacher was jirayia just as the 4th was also taught by jirayia they both summon toads.


Also all the stuff about reborn and rebirth and the amount of tails is highly specualtion and from what we have seen on the amount of tails and the damage they do to naruto its quite the oposite of what your trying to say.

[tri_0217]

regenerate is different from , what the hell would you call that? rebirth,

I didn't say that the 4th was reborn. Rebirth means when a person dies he will be born again as a new person having new parents. Im just saying that because of the power of the chakara of the kyuubi, the 4th became younger and younger until he became a baby again.

[10sarg]

so what do you call it when someone gets younger, i new rebirth wasn't the word but couldnt think of what you call it.

[DonEmu]

I didn't say that the 4th was reborn. Rebirth means when a person dies he will be born again as a new person having new parents. Im just saying that because of the power of the chakara of the kyuubi, the 4th became younger and younger until he became a baby again.

The manga said The 4th sealed the kyuubi in a "New Born" Baby...
I highly doubt naruto is the 4th. Even how they talk about him.
A son, a brother, even a nephew, but not a reincarnation, which is technically what this is.

[Recoom]

You were close, it's called Regression. or Age regression.

[tri_0217]

You were close, it's called Regression. or Age regression.

So Regression is the right word. Tnx 4 d help. I didn't know the right word either....

[10sarg]

yeah but so far we have no idea if the kyuubi is capeable of Age regression.

[tri_0217]

yeah but so far we have no idea if the kyuubi is capeable of Age regression.

I agree. It's just a theory. It could be wrong. It can also be right. Who knows....

[10sarg]

if it is true, is naruto still classed as the 4th or as a entirely new person due to his different personality and the influence of the kyuubi.

[tri_0217]

if it is true, is naruto still classed as the 4th or as a entirely new person due to his different personality and the influence of the kyuubi.

Who knows.. The 4th wasn't showed at the anime that much so I can't tell what personality the 4th has. There is a posibility that the 4th has the same attitude and personality as naruto.

[10sarg]

lets just put it this way, the 4th's personality seems to be a mix of shikamru not bothered, kakashi's laid backness, but mixed in with the ability of everyone!

nah only kiddin who knows!

[Itachi_the_Feared_One]

Exactly, the 4Tailed Kyubi is not a justu, it's a physical state where naruto cannot make a difference between good and evil.....at this stage he becomes a great danger to either friends or foe.

I believe, I am not sure though , the fourth used a technic that allows him to teleport himself he was so freaking fast that people called him the yellow flash ( the trail left because of the colour of his hair) since jiraya was his sensei, technicaly and probably he transmitted the same knowledge to Naruto during the time skip.

but then hey we really dont know, as to Sasuke he was also taught a terrible technique by Orochimaru, remember chapter 309 or 308. innevitably both Naruto and Sasuke will meet for another fight under what circumstances we dont know but it will be dramatic as hell.

I wonder how good looking is the mysterious female akatsuki member and what power does she possess,

[General Summer]

Eh,

Sounds like a fan-fiction to me. I think i'll stick to my "The fourth is dead, and isn't Naruto's father." Theory.

I mean, think about it. Kishimoto is a master at just leading you in all kinds of directions, who's to say that he may have just felt that because the fourth would be such a large, yet rarely seen, part of the manga he needed to have something put in the manga that we would see continuously throughout the manga, just to keep us guessing?

I really believe that Naruto just resembles the fourth hokage, simply for nastalgic purposes.

[HarlemDuelists]

it will prolly end up being kakashi tellin naruto all about the fourth and there relations, think bout it at the beginning i beleive the third had it all planned out that kakashi were to be in charge of naruto, or somethin along those lines. kishimoto will most likely end up makin everythin work lol.

[oipotty]

jaraiya taught naruto for 2 years, not kakashi although now, naruto is as good as kakashi

to get better, i wonder who will be his next instructor

[HarlemDuelists]

i mean at the very beginning

[10sarg]

yeah at the begininig kakshi was naruto's instructor.

Also jirayia, 4th, kakashi all have similar training methods (bell test) so it could just be natural progression that naruto picks up these skills.

i definetly dont belive naruto is the 4th for the one and only main reason of the manga. that the next generation is stronger than the last. if naruto was the 4th then he's part fo the old generation.

[Juuken]

Here I am again. Hmm… lately there have been no more praises in my thread (T_T). There are also fewer people visiting this thread. Ah well that’s life. As usual it took me a week to come back.

Ok once again I’ll try to give answers to those questions posted:

Yes the Oro mission is inside the city but that does not mean it can’t continue outside the village. Of course you already know that the 3rd refused to chase Orochimaru. Also in the episode where Jiraiya stopped Naruto from following Sasuke, Jiraiya remembered the time when he chased Orochimaru but failed. Now with Jiraiya and the 3rd unable to give chase it only leaves the 4th up for the task. Also that where Konohamaru was stopping the 3rd to a mission; the 3rd was in his battle suit so I guess the diplomatic angle is out.

I also think that I have to say that the borders I’m talking about are the borders of the fire country and not the village. So I think that Hokages may chase up to that point. It is still their territory. The fire country is big and even if the 4th really wanted to go to the battlefield right away he will hesitate to give up a chase especially if he doesn’t know what the emergency is.
__________________________________________________ ____________

I thought you said that the time wasn’t stated in the anime. I just gave my reason why I think that the Kyuubi incident happened during troubled times.
__________________________________________________ ____________

I agree with you that Naruto was a genius of hard work but I doubt that he is a natural genius. He could have used that natural genius in the academy. I think he was trying very hard to master those jutsus. Also, more than his life, his dream was on the line. If he can’t be genin then he won’t become Hokage. So why didn’t that happen in the academy. In the case of the rasengan, it is true that he only managed to do it when Tsunade’s life was on the line. The same is true for the summoning technique. But why can he use the rasengan so easily after that while summoning Gamabunta remained difficult for him to do.
__________________________________________________ ____________

Yes I believe what you say here is true. I am only speculating on why Naruto’s first successful summon has to be Gamabunta himself. There must be something in Naruto’s chakra that attracted the frog boss. Remember that he was not aiming for anyone when he summoned Gamabunta the first time.
__________________________________________________ ____________

About the power of the Kyuubi it is true that it corrodes Naruto’s body when he’s using it to battle. But you also have to remember that the same chakra that helps him recover extra fast when he sleeps.


To Mr. Halldorur I’m afraid you gonna have to be more specific than that.

I would like thank everyone who is still viewing this thread. As of now there really isn’t much information that can prove my theory or anyone else’s for that matter. So for now really speculating is the best we can do until more information was revealed to favors one’s theory.

[Tiamath]

Hmmm...can one of you Dragon Ball fans please confirm that Goku's transformation into a child in DBGT occured chronologically after Kishimoto began dropping hints about Naruto's similarity to the Fourth? 'Cause if it occurred before...well, we all know of Kishimoto's fondness for DB and the sometimes not-so-subtle references he drops into Naruto...

Remember Jiraiya's line (as he pushed Naruto over the cliff), "Forgive me, Fourth?"...it'll be amusing if this theory proves to be true...;)

[Toxic Anarch]

Remember Jiraiya's line (as he pushed Naruto over the cliff), "Forgive me, Fourth?"...it'll be amusing if this theory proves to be true...;)


..i always took that as he was saying it to the diseased 4th for the reason that the 4th is Naruto's father...i dont like this theory it just doesnt make for a good story...then again...which would u rather "Na-ru-to...i..AM...YOUR FATHER!" or som1 or the kyuubi saying "you are the 4th in-carnation!"

[Collateral]

Hmmm...can one of you Dragon Ball fans please confirm that Goku's transformation into a child in DBGT occured chronologically after Kishimoto began dropping hints about Naruto's similarity to the Fourth? 'Cause if it occurred before...well, we all know of Kishimoto's fondness for DB and the sometimes not-so-subtle references he drops into Naruto...

Remember Jiraiya's line (as he pushed Naruto over the cliff), "Forgive me, Fourth?"...it'll be amusing if this theory proves to be true...;)

dbgt started 1996 we we have ~350 chapters that makes ~7 years now it is 2007 calculate yourself :D

[oipotty]

wait im confused, why r we talking bout dbz?

[Kratos]

wait im confused, why r we talking bout dbz?

If this theory about Yondaime turning into a child is true, it could mean Kishimoto got the idea from DBGT.

[oipotty]

yea, maybe
thats another thing that supports this theory
tons of things r "copied" off dbz
this could be another one of those things

[10sarg]

it could be true, and is one of the better theory's on yondaime - but as i like to say its the best of a bad bunch! lol!

the only thing that puzzles is simply y would they not tell him? theres no reason for it at all!

also i mentioned earlier on that naruto is natural nin genius and the reason he couldnt handle the early stuff as a genin was simply cos he couldnt deal with the kyuubi chakra - it was only when he got one of the best teachers he realised his true potential.

can i just be clear when i sas natural nin genius i mean he doesnt have to learn with his head, he kind of feels it through his body.

its similar to picking up a katana for the first time, and instinctivly knowing how to block and move with it to be most effective.

[Tiamath]

it could be true, and is one of the better theory's on yondaime - but as i like to say its the best of a bad bunch! lol!

the only thing that puzzles is simply y would they not tell him? theres no reason for it at all!

But would there be a reason to tell him? I mean, they didn't tell him about the Nine Tails, until Mizuki spoiled their secret. And personally, I think the knowledge of a demon inside you that could possibly escape and destroy all you cared about is more important to know about than who your previous incarnation was. The theory of re-incarnation doesn't necessarily mean that Naruto is the same person as the Fourth, since their childhood experiences are likely vastly different. It just means they shared the same soul.

And if he really was the Fourth re-incarnated, think about how painful it would be for the Yondaime's friends to look at Naruto and realise that their 'friend' had none of the memories they had shared, or even remembered his old friends at all. It would be much easier for all involved to treat Naruto as a separate person from Yondaime.

I'm not saying I support this theory, but it certainly is an interesting one. :)

[10sarg]

hmm in your answer you just answered my question about why they didnt tell him!


obviously cos they'd have to explain the kyuubi to him and how it changed him! and they previously decided not to tell him. so theres the ans to that question.

[orion49]

Naruto is Yondaime. He looks exactly like him and the older Naruto gets the more he starts to look like Yondaime. A lot of people believe "the 4th is Naruto's Father", but that is false. If Yondaime was Naruto's father why would they not tell him? Naruto know's Yondaime sacrificed himself for the village and sealed the Nine-Tailed Fox within him. What is the reason for not telling Naruto that Yondaime was his father? It doesn't make any sense. I believe the 4th Hokage sealed Kyuubi inside himself and he reverted back to a baby as a result.

When The 3rd Hokage was fighting Orochimaru he made sure that Orochimaru did not "resurrect" Yondaime. The common understanding is that the 4th was too powerful for Sarutobi to fight - however, I believe he did this because he knew the "coffin" would be empty or that Naruto would be summoned there. I assume the fact that Naruto is Yondaime is a guarded secret. The biggest clue was the seal that appeared on The 3rd Hokage's belly after he sealed Orochimaru's arms. It is the same one that's on Naruto's stomach.

There are only 3 people (so far as I can tell) that know Naruto is Yondaime; The 3rd Hokage, Kakashi and Jiraya. With the death of The 3rd I believe Tsunade was let in on the secret. Why was this kept a secret? That's the REAL question. Maybe Yondaime knew Akatsuki or someone was after the tailed beasts and planned this and at the same time saved the village. I believe that Akatsuki will eventually capture Naruto and remove Kyuubi from him - and Naruto will either become Yondaime or regain his memories.

Other clues to Naruto = Yondaime: His mastery of the Rasengan so quickly, Gamabunta's summoning and he mentions the similarity to the 4th, Physical attributes including the trademark "smile" only drawn on Yondaime & Naruto in the Manga.

[Saru]

Naruto is Yondaime. He looks exactly like him and the older Naruto gets the more he starts to look like Yondaime. A lot of people believe "the 4th is Naruto's Father", but that is false. If Yondaime was Naruto's father why would they not tell him? Naruto know's Yondaime sacrificed himself for the village and sealed the Nine-Tailed Fox within him. What is the reason for not telling Naruto that Yondaime was his father? It doesn't make any sense. I believe the 4th Hokage sealed Kyuubi inside himself and he reverted back to a baby as a result.

When The 3rd Hokage was fighting Orochimaru he made sure that Orochimaru did not "resurrect" Yondaime. The common understanding is that the 4th was too powerful for Sarutobi to fight - however, I believe he did this because he knew the "coffin" would be empty or that Naruto would be summoned there. I assume the fact that Naruto is Yondaime is a guarded secret. The biggest clue was the seal that appeared on The 3rd Hokage's belly after he sealed Orochimaru's arms. It is the same one that's on Naruto's stomach.

There are only 3 people (so far as I can tell) that know Naruto is Yondaime; The 3rd Hokage, Kakashi and Jiraya. With the death of The 3rd I believe Tsunade was let in on the secret. Why was this kept a secret? That's the REAL question. Maybe Yondaime knew Akatsuki or someone was after the tailed beasts and planned this and at the same time saved the village. I believe that Akatsuki will eventually capture Naruto and remove Kyuubi from him - and Naruto will either become Yondaime or regain his memories.

Other clues to Naruto = Yondaime: His mastery of the Rasengan so quickly, Gamabunta's summoning and he mentions the similarity to the 4th, Physical attributes including the trademark "smile" only drawn on Yondaime & Naruto in the Magna.

pew. Pretty long post man ;)
Naruto cant be the Fourth because the Fourth died after using the Jutsu to seal the Kyuubi in Narutos belly. Counter that.

The Fourth must have been revived and transformated into a teenager. Why the heck should they transform him into a teenager and who has the ability to do that in the whole Narutoverse?

I believe Jiraiya said "Forgive me, Fourth" because there is a connection between Naruto and the Fourth but not that one ^_^. He could have said it because Naruto is his son too...although im not a fan of that theory.

Kakashi said that the Fourth never managed to complete Rasengan but Naruto could. So he makes a clear difference between the Fourth and Naruto.
He thought that Naruto will surpass the Fourth too. Why should he THINK that If he does believe Naruto = the Fourth? ;)

[Temperamental]

then why not call the manga/anime 4th Hokage Shippuden

[orion49]

pew. Pretty long post man ;)
Naruto cant be the Fourth because the Fourth died after using the Jutsu to seal the Kyuubi in Narutos belly. Counter that.

It's mentioned that the Fourth sacrificed himself for the villiage. If he "died" then where is his body? Where is the grave? Also, what is the point of sealing a monster inside a baby? Why would someone do that, would it not be dangerous to bring a newborn baby on the "battlefield"? Furthermore, who is Naruto's mother? If he was indeed a newborn, she would have given birth to him in a short time span.

The Fourth must have been revived and transformated into a teenager. Why the heck should they transform him into a teenager and who has the ability to do that in the whole Narutoverse?

This doesn't make any sense.... Naruto (4th/newborn) was never transformed into a teenager - he grew up from that point on.

I believe Jiraiya said "Forgive me, Fourth" because there is a connection between Naruto and the Fourth but not that one ^_^. He could have said it because Naruto is his son too...although im not a fan of that theory.

Jiraiya said "Forgive me, Fourth" because he is refering to Yondaime. Naruto is a new personality now with a different childhood and experience than Yondaime. However, they are genetically the same - same soul.

Kakashi said that the Fourth never managed to complete Rasengan but Naruto could. So he makes a clear difference between the Fourth and Naruto.
He thought that Naruto will surpass the Fourth too. Why should he THINK that If he does believe Naruto = the Fourth? ;)

Correction, Naruto never completed (perfected) the Rasengan. It took Yondaime (I think) 3 years to be able to do it. Naruto learned it much much quicker - this I see as more evidence that they are the same person. Yondaimes Chakra = Naruto's Chakra & it still flows so it is possible that's the reason why Naruto learned it so fast. Lastly, Naruto has the ability to surpass Yondaime because a)he is Yondaime renewed and b)he has the Nine-Tails Fox's Chakra as well. Naruto is younger and has more time to perfect jutsu's and his abilities.

[the_emerald_king_of_fat]

I think it would be better for the plot if Yondaime remained a memory and the yard stick by which Naruto measures his development. The story really doesn't need any predictable twists like the *Naruto=Yondaime* thing. It would be lame, simple as that.

[bobis101]

Its not infinite, how can somethings stamina/chakra be infiite. People just say that cos the kyuubi Has a NEAr infinite.

it is infinite. look at the mythology behind it. (i mean logically, it cant be infinite. but, in mythology, nothing is logical)

[Uchiha_Blaze]

@ Orion, Yondaime's in the Shinigami's stomach >.>